Wine and...Movies: HOME FOR THE HOLIDAYS (1995)

A rare Thanksgiving movie in a sea of Xmas movie porn, this is straight up my all-time fave holiday movie. I saw it in the theater back in 1995, and it has stayed with me all thee years.

The second directorial effort by Jodie Foster, starring the insane ensemble cast of Holly Hunter, Robert Downey Jr., Anne Bancroft, Charles Durning, Geraldine Chapman, Dylan McDermott, Claire Danes, Cynthia Stevenson, and Steve Guttenberg.

We follow a normal American family during a dysfunctional time for three days - the day before, the day of, and the morning after. Way ahead of its time in tackling issues of political divide, LGBTQ+, single motherhood, and more. It was not a box office success, but has since found its very fervent fans.

Special thanks to George Nordahl for turning us onto the Limnio grape/wine! You can read all of George's write up and follow him on Substack:
georgenordahl.substack.com

THE WINES:
Dave's Pairing
2020 Limnio Domanie Tatsis, Goumenissa, Macedonia, Greece
A wine perfect for holidays meals, but also something a bit different if you're bored with the light whites, pinots, gamays, etc.

Dallas' Pairing
Sparkling Eggnog made with NV Alexandrie Brut
Get the full recipe here!

Chapters

• 2:06 Background on the Movie
• 14:53 Dallas' Wine Pairing
• 23:02 Dave's Wine Pairing
• 33:20 Our Thoughts on the Movie
• 1:02:14 Wrap-Up!

Transcript

0:05

He's Dave and I'm Dallas and we have opinions on just about everything. Sometimes they're on point and sometimes they go down better with a glass of wine. Join us. This is the Wine and Podcast. Welcome everyone to wine and the podcast where we pair wine with entertainment to lute ourselves into thinking you want to hear what we have to say about different pieces of pop culture and art but know for a fact that you need to hear what we have to say about wine because man who knows anything about wine. We sure don't. Well, that's not true. We actually do and you can help you find the perfect pairing to whatever it is you're planning to read, watch or listen to. Now before we get started, please make sure to hit that follow button and subscribe. It does help this podcast grow and reach new listeners. Also, please leave a rating and or review five stars. So, you know, only do so if you love us. If you don't love us, send us a peevish email to wine the letter N is Nancy pod wine and pod at gmail.com. We will take your feedback into serious consideration. And if you want to sidle up a bit closer to us weirdos, our physical addresses are no, I'm just kidding. But you can find us on sub stack. Wine and Dot sub stack dot com. Sorry. I gave Dallas a scare there. I was like, what the fuck are you doing? You know my fans are ravenous. But you can find us on sub stack wine and dot. shit. Wine and dot sub stack. where you will be the first to know when new episodes drop. Get in-depth show notes, sometimes uncut versions of these episodes, bonus pairings, articles, chats, pairing directories, wineann.substack.com. Be a cool kid, drink the wine cooler aid, and join us on Substack. Okay, so today everybody, we are here to talk about what I consider to be the greatest holiday movie ever made. I'm excited to hear what Dallas has to say about it because this is the first time he has ever seen it. So you know what? Even if he's not a fan, I am super interested to hear what his take is on this. But before we get to that, let's talk a little bit about what it is, because this is our Thanksgiving episode. And we are here to talk about the movie Home for the Holidays from 1995. Home for the Holidays is a rare Thanksgiving movie in a sea of Xmas movie porn. It's the second directorial effort of Jodie Foster following her 1991 debut, Little Man Tate. The film stars Holly Hunter as Claudia, a single mother flying back home to visit her family for Thanksgiving while her teenage daughter, played by Claire Danes, stays in New York and plans to lose her virginity while her mother's away. And in fact, she announces this to her mother before she departs, but don't worry, she knows what she's doing. Anyway, once back home, is immediately infantilized by her somewhat overbearing parents, played with absolute mastery by Anne Bancroft and Charles Durning. Claudia's favorite brother, Tommy, soon appears, played by Robert Downey Jr. And tagging along with him is a seemingly new boyfriend, played by a dashing Dylan McDermott. Even though Tommy is supposed to be in a long-term relationship with another man, rounding out the family is Geraldine Chapman as the aunt. Cynthia Stevenson as the uptight youngest sister married to an equally uptight Steve Gutenberg. So that is quite a cast, my friends. It is. Now, just a little bit of background on this movie. Screenwriter W.D. Richter adapted a short story by Chris Redant published in the short story collection, quote, home for the holidays and other calamities, unquote, which you can buy on Amazon. That short story is in that collection. Executive producer Stuart Kleinman sent Chode Foster the screenplay with a note that said, quote, it's a complete mess and I love it, unquote. According to Foster, the original script, quote, was just a bunch of messy anecdotes. I love Richter, but he really enjoys that kind of structuralist thing. We then really structured it. So Foster worked with Richter to pump out a rewrite. Castle Rock Entertainment was originally going to finance the film, but did cancel at the last minute. Foster's own production company then called Egg Pictures acquired Richter Screenplay and struck a deal with Paramount Pictures to distribute the film theatrically and Polygram Film Entertainment to handle the international rights and domestic video and pay television releases if any of you kids remember any of those things which did once upon a time actually exist. The rights now belong to Metro Goldwyn-Meyer or MGM through their acquisition of Polygram's pre-1996 library. So a little bit about the production, working on a $20 million budget, which actually was surprising to me that it was a $20 million budget. was like, good. I mean, it's a big cast. Yeah, it's a big cast. It's a big cast. Working with a $20 million budget, Foster spent 10 weeks filming in Baltimore with a two week prior rehearsal period. I mean, that, yeah. And again, that's where the money went. Right. It's like 12 weeks. It's like, damn, okay. Yeah. She used this time to get input from the actors about dialogue. If a scene of speech did not ring true, she wanted to know. She picked Baltimore because it was a quote, prototype of the American city. It's dangerous, East coasty, urban, yet it still has a hopeful quality to it, unquote. Principal photography began on February, 1995. Filming of the Thanksgiving dinner took more than 10 days using 64 turkeys. 20 pounds of mashed potatoes, 35 pounds of stuffing, 44 pies, 30 pounds of sweet potatoes, 18 bags of mini marshmallows, and 50 gallons of juice that stood in for wine. guys, you didn't give him real wine? Come on. Come on now. Foster allowed Robert Downey Jr. to improvise, which got him excited about making films again after a period of time when he became disillusioned with acting. Now, It should also be noted that this was just before Robert Downey Jr.'s legal troubles with substance abuse. The movie opened in theaters in November 1995. A few months later in early 1996, RDJ was arrested for possession of heroin, cocaine, and an unloaded gun. He was given three years of probation because of this 1996 arrest. He was then jailed for nearly four months a year later after skipping a court-ordered drug test. He skipped another test in 1999 and was sentenced to three years in prison. Downey served 15 months, then was arrested again four months after his release for drug possession. So, whew, Downey's legal troubles made him a bit of a Hollywood pariah at the time. Even Christopher Nolan recently admitted that he was a little afraid, quote unquote, to meet Downey. when casting Batman Begins, telling the actor, had heard all kinds of stories about how you were crazy. It was only a few years after the last of those stories that had come out about you that he was casting Batman Begins. So Downey's history with the law also made him a tough sell to Marvel for his career defining role of Tony Stark and really his whole career renaissance that began with 2008's Iron Man. was former Marvel Studios president's David Meisels or Masels, however you pronounce his last name, Meisels top pick, but quote, my board thought I was crazy to put the future of the company in the hands of an addict. I helped them understand how great he was for the role. We all had confidence that he was clean and would stay clean, unquote. Robert Downey Jr. spoke about Home for the Holidays on David Letterman's Netflix show not too long ago. And when talking about this time of his life and because he was inebriated all through the production of Home for the Holidays. He joked that his performance is quote, the most relaxed performance in the history of cinema. And you could see it. You could see it. You can see just having a good time. He's hanging out. He is having a good time. Foster, now Foster is on record as saying that she sat RDJ down to talk to him after quote, he came to set and was speaking in tongues and I couldn't understand a word he said. But he thought he was making sense? Question mark. She's not sure. And then 20 minutes go by and then suddenly he actually started speaking English? Question mark. I sat, I shut down the set. I said, you know what? We're all going to go home. We're on time, on schedule. In fact, we're under schedule. We're all going to go home. Robert, come with me. And I sat him down. He was making sense. And he was like, yeah, hey, what's going on? What's up? Which is which is such the addicts response right? Huh? Huh? Huh? What's going on? Everything's great, right? I was something wrong. What's wrong? And I said so far you are on a bar stool and you have managed to not fall off that bar stool It's possible that you're going to find a way to prop yourself up up whatever toothpicks it takes to prop yourself up But I'm afraid for you and now may not be the time but I am afraid for you And that's the part. He doesn't remember His family intervened at the end. The last day of shooting, we knew it was coming. His family said, we are going to do an intervention on him after this shoot. And they did. He's the only other inter, he's had other interventions after that, but I did feel that this was his first step towards him really taking consciousness of his situation. We loved him. He was a family. He was a member of the family. And the lovely Charles Durning really like sat him down and talked to him about where he was headed. He was supported, but it definitely was an odd time. And that's Jodie Foster's quote. So Foster, I know, Foster nevertheless did love what Robert Downey Jr. brought to the table. According to her quote, there's one scene where he's driving Holly Hunter, Dylan McDermott is in the back seat. And Downey Jr. just keeps going off. He does this monologue where he's describing what came out of his friend's nose and everybody's just getting grossed out and trying to get him to stop and he can't. He's like this goobery this and there was a ferret just all of these things. And he went on for five minutes. Total improv. The only thing I said to him is when you hit this particular mark, I want you to slam on the brakes and stop. That was it. It's one take. It goes for minutes and minutes and minutes. And he just keeps talking about the piss, the goop, and this, the that, and the ferret. And then when he gets to the mark, he has to say something offensive to Holly Hunter that makes her go, that's it, I'm out. And it all had to be timed. We never knew what he was going to say. He got to the part just before he has to slam on the brakes, and he said, that looks like something that would have flown out of your uterus. And at that, she's like, no, that's it. So we had this amazing ability to contribute the stream of consciousness and sanity that was witty. I have no idea where he pulled those images from. And then also be aware enough to stop on a dime with a mark. I mean, that's an amazing talent. And he does, he stops on a dime. He stops on that mark. So Home for the Holidays was released in 1000 theaters and grossed 4 million US in its opening weekend. It went on to make 17.5 million in North America. The film earned a further 4.7 million internationally for a worldwide total of 22.1. But again, that was on a 20 million dollar budget. So not a box office success, not a insane flop, but not a success in at least not at the box office. The film holds a 64 percent on Rotten Tomatoes based on 50 critic reviews, though a 72 percent. from audiences. So this is not, this is a bit of a movie that I think people who love it, love it like me. There's something I saw this movie in the theater. I can't even remember why I decided to go see it. I'm not a big holiday movie guy. The cast I don't think meant a ton to me at the time. It's interesting because like Holly Hunter was very big at the time. Jodie Foster was really big at the time. I don't think I realized Jodie Foster directed this, though, at the time I was I was I was quite young. This would have been high school and late high school for me. And Robert Downey Jr. I knew who he was. He was big ish, but he didn't headline many movies really at the time, like Air America. He was second billing to Mel Gibson. Yeah. And like he could do things like Mel Gibson and Robert Downey Jr. in Air America. Robert Chaplin was really his one headlining role and I think part of his disillusionment at the time is like he did not he did not win an Oscar I don't believe for that role or like did not get quite the critical acclaim that he probably should have I've heard the movie ain't great but his performance in it is great and he was in like natural-born killers at that also I think that is the one that he won that he got the Academy nod for was his support being a supporting actor in that one He was very, very good, but he was not headlining a lot of stuff. That really didn't happen until Iron Man, really, when he became like that marquee, marquee name. So I knew, I think a lot of this cast looked familiar to me, but I didn't know who they were. I didn't really know who Dillon McDermott was. In fact, Dillon, I keep wanting to call him Dermott Mulroney, right? I was like, Dillon McDermott, Dermott Mulroney. Like they are dark featured, tallish. you know, handsome guys of the time that like both of them also rarely became like marquee marquee names, but were big enough actors and definitely had careers and a number of people actually they have a fan base and whatnot. But this is an ensemble cast that is incredible. This movie, it struck a chord in me even when I first saw it, something about it felt so true to everything about family, everything about family and holidays. about, you know, we're going to get into this when we talk a little bit more about the movie, but it really is. It's an ensemble cast. It is about Thanksgiving the day before, the day of and the day after. And that's it. And everyone's out. And it's it's something, man. It's it's I think it's fantastic. We're in here with Dallas has to say. But Dallas, before we do that, we like to say what we're drinking with this movie and what we're pairing a bit earlier earlier on in the show. So. Yeah, why don't you start us off? I've been babbling. Why don't you start us off at home for the holidays 1995? What did you pair with this and why? All right, so I had bit of a time pairing this one. Thanksgiving is generally of the high holidays. I'm not a holiday guy. No, birthday guy. But of the high holidays, Thanksgiving is definitely my favorite because it has all the sort of the trappings of Christmas in terms of the sort of the mythos and without all the pomp and circumstance and the pomp and circumstance of of of Christmas just annoys the hell out of me because it's this sort of it's this fake merriment it's the same issue I have with what are they called what's Disneyland called what's the generic term for Disneyland theme parks it's issue I have with theme parks and cruise ships. like, let's go to where the fun is. Look at all this stuff. Isn't it fun? It's like, fuck off. And so Thanksgiving is when I was a kid, it was fun. As an adult. It's just a lot. was even less fun as a kid. That's what's crazy. It was honestly even less fun for me as a kid. Yeah, but Thanksgiving, it really is just when you get past all this sort of colonial, you know, rape and murder and pillaging and all that nonsense. You know, footnote. research it if you're interested. It really is just about a big meal, getting drunk and full on the worst possible things for you and then having a long weekend to kind of just sleep it off. And Eggnog is one of those things for me that I enjoy the moment it hits the shelves, which is usually the day after. What's it called Halloween? Because Christmas starts in October now and I pick up my bottle of eggnog and I enjoyed over the course of a week or so. But recently, about three years ago, I started experimenting. with doctoring eggnog because that's what I do. I'm a mad scientist in life and in the kitchen. And I decided that white wine, a sparkling white wine, if I could make a mold white wine, and gradually blend it with an eggnog, I might be on to something. And that's precisely what I did. I took a sparkling white wine made a mold white sparkling wine and I blended it very slowly with a wonderfully creamy eggnog and yeah it is absolutely delightful and delicious and yeah I this another recipe you got to give me to put down yeah you're gonna send that to me we're gonna put this in the post the sub stack post for this podcast episode. So once again, guys, go follow us on sub stack. And then can see things like the recipe for how to make this mold white wine eggnog, which we're pairing with this movie. There you go. Yeah, a mold white wine, spicy mold white wine eggnog. It's very simple. What was your what was your wine base? What's your preferred wine base? I throw the bottle away. Did I remember just like what what kind of wine it was? yeah. I took an Alexandre Brute, is Alexandre Sellers here out of, I think they're... Sparkling. Yeah, sparkling. It is... more interesting. What the fucks? Lots of honey on the nose. You get the bread, of course. get... The bubbles are really, really robust, but fine on this one. Sort of like... almost like the tiny bubbles you get in a really good sprite. That's the only way I can describe this. Okay. Okay. And it was named the brand if you could you were. Yeah, it's alexandria. A le x a nd r i e brute envy. It is from Alexandria sellers. They are California vineyard. Okay. Yeah, I'll send all the information so we can definitely put it up. But yeah, on its own. It's a great sparkling. Again, I'm not a huge fan of sparkling on its own. blending it with this over time very slowly with the right spices and then stirring it for, you know, I ended up stirring it for about 15 minutes to make sure it incorporated well. Got some cardamom in there and got some vanilla, you know, all the sort of end of the year spices. And then of course the eggnog, which you make by hand. could buy the eggnog if you like, but I recommend you go to your farmer's market or your favorite market and get some great brown pasture raised eggs to make your eggnog with. And a little white pepper to finish it off on the top. So that is what I'm drinking with home for the holidays. And the reason is I think One of the reasons this film resonates so much and so well with people who enjoy it is because it is sort of almost like cinema verite. Like someone showed up at your house, put cameras everywhere and just recorded the 72 hours of dysfunction. Even though there is merriment, there is great food, there is sort of, you know, the presentation, the spread, the relatives you haven't seen in a while. So it's this sort of pretense, but in reality, getting all these disparate elements together is a recipe for chaos. And I think having something creamy, but also a little alcoholic and sweet takes a little of the bitterness off, because the film is actually rather bitter. It is bittersweet, but the bitterness is definitely there in relationships and sort of the... And I imagine when you when you make a mulled wine out of sparkling are you heating are you are you steeping it cold or are you actually heating it up in a Like a like a proper mulled wine, so I'm I'm putting the wine in a saucepan Cold the pan is cold The wine is cold is I should say room temperature cold and then slowly heating it So you're starting on basically one in terms of the flame and then moving up to two, moving up to three. So you're gradually warming the wine. Right. do you lose most of it? I'm assuming that does the carbonation not stick around? So by the time you're making, putting it in the eggnog. There's, say what? Here's the thing. Because you are gradually warming it over time, very slowly, a little bit of the carbonation remains. It's very Okay. So there you go, guys. The tip is go slow, be patient, and you'll get a touch of fizz. left behind. That's awesome. Okay, yeah, I'm making that. Probably when Thanksgiving is over because I got a I got a drive down to my sister's for this Thanksgiving. So I won't be at my place to do it or anything like that. But then after in between that and Christmas, this will be a nice experiment to do one of those rare days when I can actually drink something that isn't class and work and whatever, whatever. So all right, that's really cool. So I went with, you know, same basic kind of thinking. And I really, you know, this is Thanksgiving. There are lots of, there's always lots of advice on like, what kind of wines do you drink with Thanksgiving? It's a lot of food. And this movie is kind of like a Thanksgiving meal. It's a lot of different things that probably do not belong together on it at a single table that, you know, you're going to mix and match and put together. And it's kind of chaos on your plate. it's kind of, you know, chaos and turn your different relatives or different friends if you're doing a friends giving or whatever, depending on what they do, like everyone has their own favorite thing. Even in this movie, like one of the people is bringing a faux turkey. And then we're also going to have a turkey turkey. Everyone has their own version of like sweet potatoes that they're bringing because they all make it in a different way. So you have this sort of like mishmash because you have all these people that do not fit together. But because it's family, they're coming together. But everyone's only willing to compromise yay much. And then from there, they're like, but I'm having the thing I want. I don't care about the rest of you, not really. And so it is this chaos. And so for the wine, you need something that is going to be gentle, light, pair with lots of different kinds of food. Be okay with sweet, be okay with savory, be okay with salty, be okay with even a little bit of bitterness. like it needs to just sort of like swim that gamut and you need to pace yourself on getting drunk on Thanksgiving. You actually do. know you do. You want to take off the edge, but you don't want to get to the point where you can't handle it anymore. So I went with something. I wanted to go with a quote unquote Thanksgiving wine, but I did go off the beaten path. So this is something that is a Thanksgiving wine if I ever tasted one, but it's not one of the same old same old. So this is a Greek red wine. And this is from a winery called Tatsys. I actually brought this up on a recent episode with Haunted Heart, the movie starring Matt Dillon with the screenwriter Rylan Grant who came on to talk all about the making of that film. Folks, go check out that episode, Haunted Heart from 2024. And I did a different wine from Tatsys winery, a well-aged 2009, which was a recent release, but it actually was. from 2009. So they they held it back and then released it later. And it was like a well aged Barolo. This is more like a Pino. And this is from a grape called Limnio. L I n i o. Rare it's it's a grape that the only reason I even know of its existence is a fellow sub stactor George Nortel. I'm going to say for everyone go check out George Nortel sub stack down the way. Yes, down the rabbit hole. It's called and there will be a link down below in the description of this episode as well as if you're listening to this on on Substack, it'll be in the post on Substack. And I got to give George some credit on this Livneo because this is a grape. I'm going to talk a little bit about it here. So first off, Tatsys Winery. Or actually, first off, this is it's lush. It's nice and it's light in color, light in body like a pinot, lush red fruit. But it's got some rustic tannins like it actually, I think, can hold up. to a little bit of your fattier foods on the Thanksgiving table, as well as match with the lighter fare, not being such a bold, dark wine and having that nice lighter red fruit, 13.5 % alcohol. So not too low, but also not too high. You know, it's one of those things where it's like, this will get you where you need to go, but it won't get you there too fast. And it's easy to pace yourself with on that front. So. The Limneo Winery is I mentioned this in the haunted heart in the haunted heart episode. But let me just say it one more time. I won't go into super detail. If you want to hear more about the Tatsys winery, listen to that episode. But in brief, Perkolas and Sturgios Tatsys, and as we mentioned before, names. Perkolas, Pericles, sorry, Pericles. I'm reading this wrong. Pericles and Sturgios Tatsys. They've been outliers and rebels in the wine world since the 1990s. when there were only three or four others in Greece doing the kind of natural farming and winemaking that they have committed to. Their wines are officially organic and biodynamic. Now, from George Nordl's Substack Down the Rabbit Hole on this grape Lemnio, I'm going to quote, quote, Aristotle praised Lemnian wine in his meteorology book four, chapter nine. noting that wines from the island were the best. The fascinating aspect of these and other historical accounts of Lemnian wine is that we know with some certainty it was made from a varietal called Limneo. This makes Limneo the oldest recorded blue varietal in the world. It should not be confused with Limniona, which is L-I-M-N-I-O-N-A, which while sometimes used interchangeably as words with Limneo, has been shown through genetic analysis to be a separate varietal genetically. So Limniona, which also comes from Greece, but it is not the same as the Limnio. And Limnio is the historical one. That's the one that would have been all the way back to Aristotle's time. So also known as Kalambaki on Lemnos, Limnio is no longer the primary varietal of the Lemnos PDO or the local, you know, the PDOs are basically designated appellations for where a grape is grown, where a wine is made. So Lemnos PDO, Limneos no longer the main grape, which nowadays mainly produces white wines from Muscat of Alexandria. However, Limneo has found much broader adoption in northern Greece, particularly in Thras or Thrasse, however you pronounce that place in Greece, race, H R I C race, and particularly in Thrace, Macedonia and, and Thessaly, where truly thrives. This one is from Macedonia from Gomez, Gomez Nyssa. in Macedonia. Limneo is a varietal well adapted to the warm Mediterranean climates of the region and is particularly known for its ability to withstand heat and has high drought tolerance. So Limneo typically produces complex wines with red fruits such as cherries and raspberries, this one for sure. They are also known to exhibit herbal aromas as thyme, oregano and bay leaf and yes, lots of herbaceousness in this, lots of savoriness on top of that red fruit. It is a tendency which increases as the grapes mature. longer hang time tends to lead to increased herbal expressions on the palate. It offers medium to high acidity, medium tannins, lending itself to a smooth mouthfeel. And this does it is like medium tannic. is rustic a little bit like they're a little rough, but it is only medium. It's not like harsh, harsh, but it has that touch of rustic ness to it, which I actually really like. I think it gives it something more than like your bougelais or your Pinot Noirs where there's that little bit of roughness, which again, think holds up with all the food a little bit better and like helps to give you a little something that you're like, right, that's the wine mouth feel on top of all this crap I'm shoveling into my mouth food wise. It is quite often blended with international varieties such as Cabernet Franc and Cabernet Sauvignon to which it lends fresh acidity and red fruit flavors. That is not the case with this one. This is a 100 % Lemneo. It is interesting that for a heat tolerant varietal such as this, it is quite thin skinned like a Pinot Noir. Normally, or like a Gamay even, normally thin skinned varietals, Pinot Noir being a good example, prefer cool climates and Limneo actually is all about the heat and because it has drought tolerance, it has heat tolerance. So even for as a thin skinned varietal, which is why it doesn't get too tannic and the color remains relatively light and transparent. But yeah, Limneo, I'd never heard of the grape. Thank you so much, George. Another shout out to him down the rabbit hole. Go check out his tag. It's george nortle.substack.com. His name, it is george N O R D A H L dot sub stack.com. You can, again, there'll be a clickable link or a finger clickable link on, the pot, the description of this podcast episode. So go ahead and check that out if you haven't yet. And this Tatsys winery, Limnio, Gomunisa, Macedonia, Greece. It's such a great, interesting, unique thing, but proper Thanksgiving holiday wine that I think when you're taking in this movie and all its many facets and the feast of characters and events and vignettes and just what it all adds up to, like it is, some people watch this and they're just like, I don't enjoy, I don't have a good time watching this. I don't get that. I have such a good time watching this, but I kind of get it in the sense of. You're watching and it's not a dysfunctional family. You're watching normal family dysfunction, right? Especially a family at a dysfunctional time. I think the holidays are. Yes, yes. Well, because everyone's grown. All the kids have grown up. They become their own person. They've established their own families and now they all have to come back together and they are not the same like they are not on the same page about fucking anything. And so but and yet they know each other back and forth. But. knowing someone sometimes like yes, you can put up with them. But also you don't want to put up with them because you know them. You're like, I don't want to deal with this shit, you know, and it's it's a mutual feeling. It goes both ways, especially again, with extended family. So yeah, I think this wine just I drank two glasses of it while watching the film. And I was like, man, yeah, it again, it's not too high alcohol. You get a little bit of rustic tannins in there. But then all this great savoriness fruit, red fruit, It was so it's perfect for Thanksgiving and perfect for this Thanksgiving movie. So that's my pairing Have you finished that bottle yet, or you just still have a couple glasses in that one. I have half a bottle left All right You can they see me come over. We'll see Tonight and we'll what the week brings I'll stick it in the fridge and give it some time I think it'll hold up a little bit longer than this. So All right, so talking, going back to the movie, on Dallas's point about this movie, about this being about family and dysfunction and things of that nature, there, so a couple of interesting things. One, the original script by W.D. Richter, which was based on the short story, Robert Downey Jr.' character was not in fact gay, and was, he was just the wild brother. but there was that whole part of having the LGBTQ themes and that wasn't a part of it. But Jodie Foster added that in and she really wanted to explore the concept of how when we grow up, especially if we belong to certain groups of people, and even if it's just a group of people that's like a different political worldview or something like that, where your family is religious or conservative or something, and then you're not. you know, you are the polar opposite. And so you go and you kind of find your own family in life, right? You're like you find your group, you find your, your your people. And coming back to the biological family, when you found your other family out there where you more truly belong. And it's not that you don't love your biological family per se, or that you aren't grateful that they raised you and brought you into this world, but you do not belong. You know, there's no sense of belonging compared to the family that you found out in your adult life. And she wanted that to truly explore not just the difference, because with Holly Hunter's character, you know, she's a professional in New York and she's trying single mother. She's trying to make it on her own. then when she comes back to to Chicago, I'm sorry, Chicago. Yeah. So I think I think, yeah, Chicago. If I said that in the opening sermon that it was New York, my bad. Dallas has recently fallen in love with Chicago. So he's like, no, Give it credit. it credit. So Chicago shot in Baltimore, doubling as Chicago. I see that. Right. Yeah, you're right. You're right. That's a good point. Yeah. Shoot in Baltimore and it's supposed to Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that makes more sense than New York. Baltimore would not double as New York as well as readily. I don't think so. In Chicago, she's single mother. So when she comes back and visits, visits her family like There is some of that like, God, I'm trying like I don't her family cares. But then again, you know, she is still kind of struggling in a lot of ways. She is single again. She does have this kid she's trying to raise who's about to hit like, think her kid is 16. So almost about to become an adult herself. And she just got fired from her job before coming back for the holidays. So you have that thing of like, am I can take care of myself. But at the same time, I think she does go home to kind of like, I need a reset. you know, and and hit that and so there's a bit of a tug of war there but then Robert Downey jr's character is truly like I kind of just don't want to be here you know it's like I'm I'm we find out later in the movie and no spoilers but we find out later in the movie that there's there was an event that happened that he didn't invite the rest of his family to and that was kind of a big deal but it was probably wise And we find out why it was probably wise and yet it's still kind of a big deal. And you have that drama melodrama kind of going on there. So but I think exploring that thing of like there's different definitions of family and that someone can have two types of families in their life that fulfill different parts of them. And that's a big part of the melodrama that happens, I think, in during holidays when you return to one of your families. and you're leaving, there's one scene in the movie where we briefly get to see Robert Downey Jr.' other family and how different that gathering is compared to the gathering we're watching and how not full of melodrama or so we think. We see like two minutes of it, who knows? But seemingly much more free of melodrama and much more welcoming and much more whereas like the family at home is that classic American family where it's like there's a lot of heads butting. going on on like a five to 10 minute basis. So I thought that was a good idea. I think they explored that really well with that. But Dallas, your thoughts? This is your first time watching this movie. What are your thoughts here? You know, I, I can definitely see why she wanted to direct this film as her second outing because our first was not now was Little Man Tate, Little Man Tate. You know, that whole cinema verite middle American just fly on the wall for the unabashed chaos that is the average American family or family in general getting together under this pretense where you have everyone locked into these sort of archaic roles that's what that sort of nebulous family really is it's When you return home, you're returning to their vision of you from the past. That is why parents and children but head. That is why siblings but heads. It's you know, and speaking about that second or chosen family, even Robert Downey Jr. He has a line in the film where he says he's on the phone with his friend and he says, how is my chosen family? They were having their Thanksgiving party, their friends getting which that was a little on the nose for me, Jody, but I get it. And don't forget this was 1995. Right. And like Jody, a number of people criticize this movie is that part hasn't aged well. And I'm interested to hear your take on this because I'm you know, which way the LGBT the Robert Downey Jr.'s whole arc and like his family's response to both his gayness and the fact that he got married and their reaction to that and like the and they feel like it was too much. And I'm like, I don't know if it was too much for 1995 though. But then they're like, okay, so it was a snapshot, but then it hasn't aged quote unquote, hasn't aged well. I'm like, this is it true? I don't think I agree that something hasn't aged well because it is true, truly indicative of its moment in time. And I'm like, that's not the same as not aging well. Yeah, exactly. You know, When went as an artist as a writer as a filmmaker you at least in my belief it is your duty. You don't have to take on that duty but you should be able to reflect the times you are in. That is what the chronicling of existence is through art many times. And you know to say something doesn't age well simply because the vernacular the language doesn't necessarily resonate. 30 years later is ridiculous because at the end of the day presenting that character in that environment on that day, Thanksgiving as a person who has been at a familial kind of celebration where someone has delivered some revelatory information. What you get is two things. You get everyone on their best behavior, right? They're pretending not to be their worst possible selves by blowing up and saying, God damn it, how could you? You know, I didn't raise you to be that way. So you get that sort of restraint. There is a restraint that happens in that scene. You know, and that's an honest expression. That's an honest possibility. see, right. And you can see there is the very uptight younger sister and her husband that are, they're the worst of the lot. where they're like, they're very much like they're they're the believers in the American way of life of like, there's an there is a correct way of American life and everything else is not correct. And like, you're just doing shit to act out. You're just doing shit to draw attention to yourself. And it's unfair to the rest of us. They are representing the status quo, the sort of status quo. Yes. And last week on a week, we did a the novel Breasts and Eggs where we talked about Japanese culture and how in the author's own words in Japanese culture to do something different than what is expected is to be a burden to the rest of society. And there of that mindset, because America has that side of itself for sure. And especially back then, coming out of the 80s and 90s, like the Reagan era, we were still very much steeped that era of like there is a proper way to be an American suburban successful middle class upper middle class and like so there's a way you behave and there's things you do and there's keep your vices to yourself. You go to church on Sunday and absolve them and then you go back to work 9 to 5 Monday through Friday right right and if you're off the beaten path that is something that is like again a vice versus your sexuality where it's like we get to do our sexuality as like. the normal thing that gets to be expressed in all the ways in every way and gets to be public and announced and pronounced and you get to hide it and or move on stop doing it once you grow up quote unquote or something like that right where it's like it's not proper it's not okay and I think also to the going back to the point of this whether this ages well or not and what the test of that is I think if even as a writer today if I wanted to write a story set in 1995. Like it would still be the this story. Like it wouldn't be and so I'm like, okay, so that is, it's not that we are whole understanding of LGBTQ has shifted so dramatically that this doesn't even look familiar anymore. I'm sure there are younger generations that would be like, no one was that bad. Maybe I don't know. And then there might be older generations still in denial that it was ever actually that bad. And I'm like, This isn't even that bad. have one side of the family. That's the reality is for so many people, it is much worse. The idea that he gets to sort of just freely be this sort of expressive and for everyone else in the family to kind of know what's going on in his life versus his mother and father, their awareness of it is It's really indicative of the time and now I mean, so whoever is out there saying that this is this doesn't hold up well. I think what they're doing is this thing that happens in culture. It's very performative. They go back into the art into those are sort of artistic canon and find these characters who have these what would now be considered inappropriate reactions to. things because I think their biggest issue is the reaction of the father. And the reality is more the sister more the younger sister, right? The father and sister. And the reality is that no, sorry, guys, that's, that's, that's kind of what happens in many families and happen and still happens today. So, you know, going back to through filter, the film, film, the canning or artistic canon with the sort of, you know, with your modern blinders on really doesn't do anything. It really doesn't help any argument whatsoever. If you're attempting to judge the characters of three decades ago based on, you your sort of your moment in in evolution, cultural evolution. Right. It's just it's it's it's it's a zero sum game anyway. Anyway, go ahead. I am. I applaud Jodie Foster and the team for doing this film because it definitely stands out when you compare it to the kind of films that were coming out at the time. This is what? Ninety four, five, twenty, twenty five. You know, no, no, no. Filmed early. Ninety five came out right. Ninety five. Yeah. OK. You know, we had just entered that first wave of superhero films. Batman had already been around for what? three years, four years. We'd started getting some those. 89, 88. in there, we'd had, you know, we'd started getting some real amazing spectacles, right? And the idea of storytelling had become, was becoming even more formulaic to a certain degree. And the idea that you get this sort of bumbling family in this sort of cinema verite style that while there are arcs, of course, there are clear arcs, there's a clear sort of structure. It does sort of meander through these relationships, which is why I think it isn't sort of favorably reviewed because it does sort of have just hanging out with his family. There isn't really a purpose. Right. Right. Right. Which, again, I think might be the brilliance in it because One thing it does do is when you're watching this film, in general, you see a version of your family or a version of yourself and you kind of walk away going, okay, this is kind of the purpose of Thanksgiving. Right. And I do think possibly, possibly some of the divisiveness on it is like some people are like, they can't see any part of their family in this family. And it's like, okay, mean, fair. But I hope you realize a lot of families are like this. Like this is so it. But then again, then you have that like it keeps certain people at an arm's length because they just don't see enough to latch on to. And then other people, if they can Rorschach test it where they're like they see what they want to see out of it. And there's enough that they can they can see in it and in their own lives. Yeah. And you know, it. By contemporary standards, this is considered an experimental film for sure. By contemporary sort of market standards of the last 40 years in terms of popular. I don't know about experimental, but I would say house. We go. I would say experimental. But one thing I do appreciate about it is excuse me, is that it really does allow you to kind of get a little perspective on the purpose of these events because they are they come up once a year it's it's part of our collective kind of calendar right it really is kind of part of the purpose at least for me walking away with this sort of lesson of this film is it's kind of the steam valve once a year this is where you go to kind of let some of the pressure off of the past of the relationships right and You know, and that's how I take my sort of gatherings with family every year is, you know, I'm the sort of child who went away, right? I'm not there dealing with the day to day kind of drudgery of life as time passes. Like my siblings are all there and they're dealing with this thing. So when I pop in, there is sometimes a little bitterness that may not be necessarily earned on my part. And maybe it is in their perspective and they're from their perspective situational more than earned or unearned. But it's there. It's a part of the situation and you recognize it. They recognize it. But it's not right. It's to say that it's uncalled for because it is still it fits the situation. Right. And it's valid from. So it's like you haven't been here. So your input is, of course, going to be devalued. Right. Right. It's like there's there's a weighted system here of import. You know. And right. You know, the sooner people recognize that, think, in actual familiar relationships, the easier it is to deal with things when you come together. So this film, I think, is great. I wanted a little more narrative structure. I wanted something a little sort of a stronger backbone to the film because I think it had phenomenal potential. not to say that it's not a very good film. It is. It's very entertaining. It is a classic. will stand up. I think it will be, you know, it's so curious because it is kind of a snapshot of a particular time in our collective memory because this film, while made in the nineties and the nineties was a distinctly sort of forward thinking. Transition period. Yeah. But yeah, the future was our focus in in the nineties, right? Because of technology, everything that was happening. But. What this film does, and I think what lot of great traditional films do, is that it was equal parts presenting the influence of the past, while also focused on the future. And so you get this sort of... It showcased the things we are going to be dealing with going forward in terms of like, these are the things we are struggling, wrestling with right now in terms of moving forward. And then and because this is where we came from. Right. Yeah. Right. You see those those very distinct characters from the mid 50s, 60s and 70s in this film, just in the decor of the home in sort of the lighting in sort of, you know, Charles Durning and his just unbelievably patriotic middle patriotic. No, what am I saying? We're going to patriarchal patriarchal. Thank you. All right. Yeah. Delete that part. No patriarchal sort of presentation and Anne Bancroft, who is an icon from film of the 40s and 50s and 60s or 50s and 60s. You know, you get this sandwich and it is sort of like it's like that sandwich the next day after Thanksgiving. where you get, you know, you get a slice of you're slopping it all on You're slopping all the pieces together. It doesn't make sense. It shouldn't go together. That cranberry should not go with that fucking stuffing and turkey and that little slice of macaroni. But guess what? It all does. It all does. It all does. That's America. That's a family. That's Thanksgiving. I mean, for me personally, I don't need more structure. I'm actually always impressed this has as much structure as it does because it is such an ensemble, art housey slice of life, like in and out within like a day and a half where it's like, here is a small window of time with these people. You see it all happen. You see the art, the ebb and flow of the drama. And you get to know who these people are, what their histories with each other are, what their dramas are with each other, their tensions with each other are, and then you're out. Then you all go, because like a holiday, you go back to life, your normal life afterwards. And everyone, everyone, everyone separates and goes back to that other reality rather than this weird family reality. And it was nice that like, Everyone had their flaws. Some people were definitely worse than others in my own judgment. you was so curious you say that I'm I'm reading a lot about this film and the people had big issues with I guess the sister. yes, but here's the thing. Here's the thing. The sister and Steve Gutenberg, like they're to me the most obnoxious, no question, because like they have a worldview that is the worldview I've rejected as being. honest and real and true. And it is something where you're putting the onus of everything on everyone else. You think you're putting it on you to be upright and accomplish everything like you're doing everything the way it's supposed to be done. And so you think you're struggling. But by making what you kind of want to do anyway, the thing that is supposed to be done, right. And so it's like you're struggling to do that, but you're also judging everybody else. It's like down off the cross, darling, we need the wood. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, it's like they have their issues, but they're not scorched earth. Yeah. About it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you know, you can just go talk to them later and they're hard to talk to sometimes. They are very single, like single minded in their way. But you can also see them struggle with like they don't want to lose their relationships. with their family. Like it does tear them up that they're unlike. It does like it's not something they take casually, even though they don't know how to be different, which is part of their tragedy, right is like the sister at the very end when Holly Hunter tries to put send out an olive branch, and the sister is like, No, I just can't know how it was like, Okay, all right. And then leaves. But then the sister kind of wants to cry afterwards. Right. And so it's like you edit No one is just a thoroughly disgusting human being or anything like that. are just they have their hangups and they don't know how to get past them. And they kind of want to, but they also kind of don't, which is why they can't get past them is like they don't know which way to go. And everyone kind of is a little hung up like Holly Hunter, of course, was hung up on letting the new guy into her life and moving forward with like that new really he had to kind of make the decision for her a little bit and be like, I'm going to. present myself and like, let's try this for 24 hours and let's see what happens, you know, kind of a thing. I'm on the next flight out if not. But you know, she was trying to shut she's like, No, that's a Dave Baxter romance right there. Right there. And there is even the dad like you call him patriarchal, but he's a very soft patriarchal, right? Or it's like, he's set in his ways, but he's very well meaning about everything. And even at the end, like he's the one both the parents are like with Robert Downey Jr. and his character and the fact that he got married, like they only can accept that for like, what, a couple of hours? And then they're like, okay, okay. Like they're just like, can't because then for them, they're so well meaning that the problem is, is even though they don't want to accept it, they don't want to be the people who don't accept it. Right. And they recognize that and they're like how... mean are we being to not accept this and he's there. He's our son and like that's the part that that is is heartbreaking in a good way is that like you know, they're like I they're almost going through the motion saying they accept it because they know it will become a reality if they just say it and do it, you know, and they're like a year from now it'll be normal to us. You know, we just it's new. It's we have to get over ourselves and within like a couple of hours they do. And so it's like Yeah. And so like every character in this movie has redeeming qualities, no matter what their, their poor qualities are, the qualities you might judge them for. So I love that everyone's a true blue human being. The nineties were still, was still an era where we weren't as divided in ways that were as critical or didn't seem to be as critical. And I think because things weren't on a national platform yet, you could have all this drama in the family. and the family, we could figure it out. Whereas now we're almost like, you know, we want laws passed one way or the other, like right to marriage or not, right to bathroom use or not, right to citizenship or not. Like things are becoming stark in that we want action from a, from on a governmental legal level that is like, okay, now we do as a, as a populace have to figure this shit out. Okay, because now, yeah. Give me exactly 12 seconds. I just had a fix for a script. cut this part. Okay, because it's probably go ahead. It reminded me of a problem in a script I've been trying to fix and I just knocked myself out. And it's gonna nag me if I don't write it down. Okay, so Dallas just fix the script. And to wrap us up. Dallas, what is your favorite holiday movie of all time? that's a question. Geez. it's funny. Home for the holidays is my I'm sorry. Go ahead. mean the last quarter of the year holiday. Thanksgiving, predominantly if you actually have a different one, I'm curious to hear it, though. Holy shucks. I will say that for me, Home for the Holidays is my all time favorite today. My second runner up weirdly, it's from I think 96, almost exactly the same little period. must have plainly an influential holiday time in my life, but it'd be Jingle All the Way. Who's in that? Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sinbad. I'm sorry, OK, so next year we know what we're doing for the holidays. Because apparently Dallas has not seen jingle all the fucking way with Arnold Schwarzenegger and sin dad. Dude, it's amazing. All right. I think you're making that up. But all right. No, Anyway, so those are my two favorites, but wildly different home for the holidays and jingle all the way. Not remotely similar in flavor. And I mean, it's a holiday movie similar in theme. but jingle all the way is much more traditional, like, you know, dad works too much, doesn't pay enough attention to his family, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Miracle of Christmas, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But Home for the Holidays is just so real and so down to earth. And it's I can honestly see you really, really enjoying this one. Because it is sort of a, it does this thing. It holds up a mirror. And a lot of films don't do that in an authentic way. really holds up And yet still hopeful. Still so hopeful. At every turn. It's not just a way to be like, look at how terrible family is. It says that, but then explores it in a way to where you're like, It's terrible, but it's magical. There's something magical that family holds together more often than not in the ways that it does. And for those out there that have far worse families that do not hold together, I know those do exist, like that does happen. It's not even that rare. But the fact all families should be that bad, honestly. Like when you really break it down to it, all families should be like the worst. And the fact that the magic holds it together in this way more often than not is the magic of it. Because when you look at it, when you explore it, it's like none of this should work. And this should be like the worst gathering ever known to man every time. Favorite holiday film, themed film. This will change in 20 minutes once we're off this call. my actual list I have at the back of my head on the postboard. Will be revealed again, but offhand it's probably going to be one of the Rankin and Bass stop-motion Okay films Yeah, I just even as an adult those just resonate some mostly because I don't really respond to people actual people You know as a child Talk about a snapshot in time, the Rankin and Bass Christmas specials. Absolutely, man. Just beautiful. whole spirit, attitude, tone. I love them too. I own a handful of them on digital. I bought them just because they're such childhood memories. But they don't hold up, hold up. Yeah, nothing holds up. Nothing holds up 20 years later. I think home for the... I think Home for the Holidays holds up. Well, again, you're in the minority and you're in the majority on the other one. Anywho, this has been Home for the Holidays 1995 movie starring Holly Hunter, Robert Downey Jr., Dellen McDermott. Did I get that right? Yes. Not Dermott and Mooney. Yes. Dellen McDermott and Charles Durning and Ben Croft. Go watch it. It is on Pluto TV in the States. Free to watch. So you can just go stream it right there. my favorite holiday film of all time to drink with it for me Tatsys winery Limneo, L-I-M-N-I-O, George Nortel from Down the Rabbit Hole on Substack, georgenortel.substack.com link down below you can click on it go check out a Substack because he is a wealth of knowledge in wine and that is my pairing for this a great Thanksgiving wine if you want something a little off the beaten path that is still a perfect Thanksgiving food pairing wine as a red not too high in alcohol and Limneo K &L wines carries it and you it is around in the states a little bit. I got it from K and L which is in San Francisco, two locations in Hollywood and one in Redwood. So if you're in California, you can probably get it from K and L. They'll ship probably too late for Thanksgiving to ship. if you're nearby, jump over there. They all the stores have a couple bottles of this right now. So you can go find it in all those places in Dallas your pairing is it is a spicy white wine. eggnog blend, which is fantastic. Please try it. If you hate it, give it to yourself. If you love it, let us know. And recipe for that down below in our sub stack, not down below in the in we will have a link to our sub stack down below in the description of this podcast. But go to our sub stack if you want to make any of this stuff, because that's where we're going to have the recipes. All right, everyone. Happy motherfucking holiday. That's right. Happy Motherfucking Thanksgiving. Enjoy yourself, survive, or if you're with your chosen family, have fun and survive. weird too. They're just more drunk. You're weird too. Exactly. And we will be back in one week with another One in the Entertainment pairing. For your entertainment, we have two more episodes this year. Next week, we will be back with Jessica Maysan as we tackle the feature film Moon from 2009. And then the week after that, we will be doing Snoop Dogg's Christmas album. And we will be trying it with the two Snoop Dogg wines, his Rose and his Sparkling and seeing how they pair together. And that will be our grand finale of season one of Wine and and then we will be back sometime in twenty twenty five. Actually, you know what, Dave? I mentioned we were doing to a friend of mine who's an also sort of wine drinker. I mentioned that we were doing the Snoop Dogg episode. He said, you know, you guys, Snoop has a wine, a line of marijuana to. Yes. was like, I was like, okay, we'll see. I know, I know, I know. I love that it's all stuff Snoop doesn't do. It doesn't ingest anymore. You know, I'm like, come on, Snoop, come on, You you neither smoke nor drink anymore. Like, just know. But you know, more power to him. More power to him. He survived. He was the Robert Downey Jr. And he got out the other end like Robert Downey Jr. More power to everyone that does that rather than meeting a worse fate than that. And guys, imbibe. Either marijuana or alcohol in moderation, please, dear God. And also look for that non-alcohol wine article that we're going to be dropping because we're very excited about what that's going to bring to the future. All right, folks, we will catch you next time. Ciao for now. Signing off. Later, you you you Okay. Are you ready? Yeah, let's do it.