Wine and...Music: THE CIVIL WARS (2013) w/ Maria Banson - Part 1

What a shit shitty week in America, folks.

To "celebrate", we're tackling the abulm THE CIVIL WARS by the band The Civil Wars - their second and final album, as they underwent their own civil war in the making of it! While they were not in a romantic relationship, this is nevertheless considered one of the great "breakup" albums alongside Fleetwood Mac's "Rumors" (Stevie Nicks is on record as listening to this album and saying "Oh, that's us.")

We're joined by San Francisco-based Sommelier and music-trained vocalilst MARIA BANSON, writer of the BRUNELLO BOMBSHELL Substack and podcaster of THE WINE PRESS news.


THE WINES:
Maria's Wine Pairing:
2019 G.D. Vajra Barolo Albe
A rush of red berries, raspberries, and red currants is wrapped by a layer of sweet spices. The mouthfeel opens with a gorgeous balance, great energy and refined tannins, and the aftertaste echoes the aromatics with lingering complexity.

Dave's Wine Pairing:
2020 Heritage de Saint-Mont Saint Mont
An interesting wine from the little known Saint-Mont region, composed of 65% Gros Manseng, 30% Petit Courbu and 5% Arrufiac. Pear and crisp green apple with a hint of gunflint.

Dallas' Wine Pairing:
2020 Napa Valley Ribolla Gialla, Matthiasson Vineyard
The 2021 is available to order direct from the winery, but the 2020 can still be found online at various stores willing to ship! An "orange wine" made in the ancient style of Northern Italy.

Chapters

• 3:22 Special Guest Maria Banson
• 14:50 The Civil Wars (A Not So Brief History)
• 35:17 Our Respective Histories with the Album
• 50:54 Maria's Wine Pairing
• 53:36 Dave's Wine Pairing
• 1:03:53 Dallas' Wine Pairing

Transcript

0:00

if I could go back in time When you only held me in my mind Just a longing gone without a trace wish I'd never ever seen your face I wish you were the one Wish you were the one that got away. He's Dave and I'm Dallas and we have opinions on just about everything. Sometimes they're on point and sometimes they go down better with a glass of Join us. This is the wine and podcast Welcome back everybody to Wine and the show where we pair wine with movies, TV, music, books, comics, and maybe one day we'll pair it with, I don't know, talented but taciturn men. wait, I've already paired wines with Dallas. Nevermind. Chuckle, chuckle, good thought. However, we are going to pair wines with another very talented, very taciturn man today. By the way, for you all literates out there, taciturn means un- communicative, someone who says very little, you should go read a book. Definitely at least read more books than we do. We are so slow. You'll notice we do books in this wine and but we do like one every three months. So like read more books than us. Low bar. So get to it guys. Read more books. And while you're at it, if you like what you hear today, please make sure to hit that follow button and subscribe. does help this podcast grow, reach new listeners, maybe end future civil wars. And if you love us, then please leave a five star review. If you don't love us, send us an email. Tell us why you don't love us. It can't be because we're taciturn. We do nothing but talk. So how about you do some talking instead? Send that email to wine, the letter N as in not talking, P-O-D as in piece of dumb, like as in not talking that. That's a stretch. know I'm running out of material. I do this for every single episode. You try to come up with POD. What does that stand for? Every single episode. I'm probably going to have to switch this up in future episodes because I'm running out of material. Anyways, wine and POD at Gmail dot com. Send that email to us. We are also on sub stack. Sub stack subscribers are the first to know when new episodes drop, can interact with us, gain access to bonus pairings, articles, interactive polls. Pairing directories, which I am putting together as we speak, they are almost ready, but they will only be for the paid subscribers. Those pairing directories will chronicle every single pairing with every single book, movie, TV show, comic album for history. They will always be there for you to go there, get the details and find out what we paired with, including our guests, everything. So that is wine.wineand.substack.com. We would love to see and hear from you. there. And since you're already doom scrolling, go ahead and find us on all the socials. We are wine and pod the full A and D pod wine and pod. We're on Instagram threads, Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook. And to wrap this up, know that most of the time we discuss things we love. Sometimes we dissect something that we hate. But whatever it is you love, whatever it is you hate, there is a wine that pairs with that today, everybody. We have a very special guest with us, Maria Banson. Banson is a certified sommelier and semi-retired actress living and working in the San Francisco Bay area with her husband Enrico Banson, who not incidentally is also a filmmaker, music director, stage director and actor himself. Maria is the author of Brunello Bombshell, a substack publication that pairs wine with movies, TV shows and more. She enjoys listening to Vivaldi operas and singing Libiamo while drinking special club champagne or old Brunello, hence the Brunello Bombshell. And I got to say, I had an old Brunello last week. Tell me, tell me, tell me. It was a Piave. am I going to remember what I The bottle's gone. The bottle's gone. It was very good. It was a 2014. So not like old, old, but 10 years. 10 years is pretty good. That's right. And I had some bad luck. It's great age. had a 2003 and a 2007 in recent months that I'd been sitting on for a little too long, unfortunately, which is what happens with wine. Both were past their prime. And a Brunello should be able to get to those ages. it was, you know, I storage, they went with a move during the summer with me one summer. that was, I tried like the, moved all the wine myself. I would load it into the air conditioned car and get it up into the new apartment. But it nevertheless took a lot of summer heat, I think during that time. And then I had to learn the new apartment and where I could keep things cool and where I couldn't with the AC units and where they were located. And I F'd up and I put them in the kitchen. where the AC just could not reach. And I think they spent a couple, like a month or two in there where it, think some of my wines, I'm like, some of them have gotten, I've opened some of them, they were fine, but then some, especially the older ones, I think they did not make it. So, but that's on me. But Old Brunello is amazing everybody. Let me also say Maria also hosts her own podcast, The Wine Press, your weekly dose of wine news covered in 15 minutes. episodes so not like us motherfuckers. If you hate this show because it's one to two hours long every single time, you are going to love Maria's show because I can listen to Maria's show every single week. And when you make a podcast, you kind of run out of time to listen to other podcasts a lot of the time. Every time the earbuds are in, you're editing your own stuff. So all you can do is listen to your own stuff. I would love to edit a podcast while listening to other podcasts because what that doesn't work. So you can't do that. But I can listen to Maria's every week, 15 minutes, tune in every Thursday for the most eye-catching news from the wine world and beyond. Maria, welcome to Wine and, officially. And first question for you, how often does your husband sing you the West Side Story Maria song? On a daily basis, a weekly basis, or have you shut that shit off at this point? And you're like, no, no. If this relationship is gonna work, that is done. How funny you should mention it. My husband and met at a dive bar over karaoke. Nice. Very nice. I listened to the man sing me the phone book and never get bored. stop it. Yeah. that's cute. OK, well, he's got it. How about the blondie song, Maria, just for a change of pace? Let's maybe jump to that. That's doesn't worry as much. Although you'd think my husband is a self-proclaimed yacht rock enthusiast, so it's kind of all 80s all the time over here. That's my guy. That's my guy. yes. I am the king of the rock guys. my God. Dallas sends me tracks all the time, like Spotify tracks. And I'm always like, it's a little mellow. And he's just like, you got to get into the groove. You need a It's eight minutes of groove. It's not doing anything. Context. He's trying to get me into it. Sometimes you just need yacht rock and a good glass of rosé to transport you anywhere. Absolutely. Real quick, Maria, give the people a taste here. What are some of your favorite stories you've covered on your wine news podcast? my gosh, the weird and wonderful. The cool thing about wine is that it is a constantly changing art form science. And the more that I get into wine, the more that I realize that I don't know a lot about a lot. Isn't that right? This past week, I did a deep dive on champagne and what's happening with harvest over there and how critical vineyard worker conditions can be. But I also get to turn it around and look at cool stories about vineyard management through drones dropping all sorts of weird bucks. Right. And can I just say the fact that people died last year from harvesting champagne? I'm like, I'm sorry. In 2020, 3. Yeah, I'm like, we're people are still dying in the fields because of apparently the extreme heat that they weren't used to. So they just like, I guess kept cracking the whip and sending them out there. And it's like, no, guys, it's hot now. You can't do that. It kind of blows your mind, right? How much how much is out there, how much goes into it and how much changing conditions takes time for human beings to truly adapt to. That's also part of the kind of lineage of the wine, right? That's the kind of rarity that's that added extra nonsense that they ultimately end up charging for. So yeah, it's it's a rather unfortunate whole system. But as champagne goes, it's lovely, but it shouldn't come at the cost of someone's death in the field. This is your PSA. Welcome to my TED talk. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We are here, even though your substack is, I just mentioned you do wine and movie and TV pairings for the most part, at least that's what you've done so far. We are here to talk about an album today and the reason we are doing that is much like one of our previous Wine World substack guests of the past, Kate Ruschel, you have a history in the music world. And it actually plays into how you got into wine. So. Please give us that story, your background in music and how you transitioned to become a certified sommelier. my gosh, I love telling the story. It never gets old. I thought from a very early age, I would be a career musician. It was everything that I had trained for, everything that I wanted to do. I spent every waking moment dreaming of how I could just be performing all the time. I started my undergraduate career thinking I wanted to be the next Patti LuPone. That's a good choice. I started as a musical theater major at Cal State Fullerton. I spent a lot of time at Disneyland and less time at class, but it was still high quality education. Ended up changing my major to opera and classical voice when somebody told me you've got a really good size instrument and you have ability with language. So through getting in some detailed French, German, Italian diction work, I was able to discover a love of everything that opera is. It is something I still hold very dear to me, even though I'm not performing as much anymore. But fast forward a million and three years, I met my husband when he was acting and I was directing at the time and somebody just kind of convinced me to say, know, come see him. Five years later, we ended up married. One Christmas, it was our first Christmas together after we had gotten married that I had sung myself hoarse doing too many Christmas gigs, found myself on the couch watching Sweet Bitter. And seeing that show brought me back to the great memories that I had of the restaurant world. And realizing that I wanted to go further into wine, I picked up a job at a great white tablecloth Italian spot in my hometown. and I started on March 10th, 2020. And ended. Yes, ended up Almost the same day. But for that glorious week, I was in my zone. had a 3,000 bottle list that I was careening through, and there were people throwing stuff under my nose all the time. They said, hey, you want to start learning about wine? This is how you do it. When the world shut down at approximately a week later, I watched the Psalm documentary, started getting into some reading material since I have the time, and eventually felt like it was time to me to transition into something new. I left the music day job August 31st, 2022. And the very next day I popped up on Instagram and saw that a new class of master sommeliers had been announced. It was a class of 10, one of the largest in recent history and the most diverse class across gender and race and ethnicity by far in years. And right in the middle of the photo was somebody that I had been following on Instagram, a San Francisco based song. Master sommelier Chris Gaither is the fourth black master sommelier in the world and his wife is also an MS. I know Chris Gaither. I'm familiar. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And to see him pass was the aha moment that made me say, OK, Chris and Rebecca can pass. I can pass. So signed up for intro very soon afterwards. Just guess who happened to be my teacher. No. Teaching his very first class as an MS, I got to shake his hand afterwards and say, you're the reason why I'm here today. And as we're both looking at each other fighting bacteria, he said, great, see what blind tasting on Wednesday. And from then on. I found a tasting group through him, found some other great songs in San Francisco, passed certified five months later, and was on the floor at GooGloo the very next day. That's crazy. Wow. It's an insane, wonderful, crazy, I can't think of any more adjectives world. Now have you managed to work in any of the opera during your tenure on the floor? Not. Yes. With a husband who is an illustrious film and theater director, I'm never truly far from it. I've been working on some casting things with him. So when he needs people for a show, because I have insight into that, he'll often call me and say, Hey, can you take a look at some auditions for me? Word on the street is that there might be an opportunity for me to perform soon. I I I need to stay a little bit quiet about exact details, hoping to come back to the stage next He's starting to warm up the old lovelies. Yes, yes, exactly. Beautiful. Yeah. All right. Well, let's dive in because we have a lot to talk about today. So let's dive in to what we're here to talk about, which is the 2013 album, The Civil Wars, by the band The Civil Wars, it was their second and final album. we are going to here's what we're going to do today, guys. I'm going to give the history of this album leading up to its release and even a little bit after because The Civil Wars is a duo. And I'm going to say this up front. So I know recording this, we were talking about this offline right before we started recording. This is going to be a two part episode, folks. So and the reason it's going to be a two part episode. is we're gonna cover the history of this band, which is gonna be the meat of part one. There is so much to say that I usually take my show notes in Google Keep. And for those who don't use Google Keep, it's part of your Google Drive, Google Docs, Google Sheets, like part of that little Google Suite. And Keep is like the notepad, right? It's just the place to jot down notes. Now, normally I can write a lot of notes and I didn't realize there was a character count. because I've never butted up against it before. And this time I was trying to keep typing and it just stopped. And I was like, what gives? What's going on? And I just kept hacking. I'm like, my keyboard break? And then I looked at the very bottom in a tiny print. was like maximum character count reached. And I was like, what? So I had to move it all over to a Google Doc so I could just keep going. And we have so much to say that we are going to cover the history. Then we're going to talk about our respective histories of the band, mention the wines we are pairing with this album, and then part two will be the track by track as we go through it. Guaranteed it's going to take all that. that said, what we're going to do with the history of this band is first let me introduce the band. The Civil War, the Civil Wars plural, sorry. The Civil Wars are a duo, Joy Williams and John Paul White. All right, Joy Williams. age 26 and John Paul White at age 36 were at a songwriting camp in Nashville in 2008. I'm going to say John Paul Williams, I'm going to call him JPW from now on, just save a little time. So JPW was already signed as a major label solo artist to Capitol Records with a rock album before the camp, though this was never published because of the company's merger with Virgin. He described the experience as quote, bitter. Most importantly, in a 2016 interview, he implied that he was already away from his family for long periods of time prior to meeting Joy at this camp. So Joy and Nate Yaton, if I'm pronouncing his last name right, I'm not 100 % certain, but I'm gonna say Yaton. Joy and Nate Yaton, her husband and the eventual manager of the Civil Wars under his label Sensibility Records, were longtime sweethearts. She met him when he was a waiter at a restaurant. and they married when she was 21 and he was 23 in 2005. So JPW and his wife Jenny married in 1998. Their first child was likely born sometime in the mid 2000s. So all of this history, all of these relationships were in place before these two met in 2008 at this camp. All right. So everything I'm about to say from here is actually mostly based on this single Reddit post. Now, It's a post, not a thread, just a post. And this Reddit post is so epic. I am only going to be reading you highlights from this post because this would this post would be the entire two parts of this podcast if I read the whole thing. So I'm only going to read highlights. But this is a post by someone named Salky Pudding on Reddit. The post is Why did the Civil Wars break up? A timeline of Joy Williams and John Paul White. Now. This was posted because there were so many rumors and so much speculation about the relationship between these two in this band and how it all fell apart and why they broke up. And this person chronicled, he strung together the history that was available to the public. I mean, deep dove into this history and everything is referenced. Like he's got links to all the interviews, all the live performances, all the public. moments where they publicly said something or stated something on social media. He pulls it, he or she, I actually don't know, pulled it all together into this epic post. So much so that the very first comment after this post was, and I thought I was a proper historian on the Civil Wars. My God, I've never seen that retreat from Jenny. That's so interesting. What retweet? Who the fuck is Jenny? You're about to find out. So let me start reading highlights from this epic post. So both Joy. And JPW mentioned being very burnt out as solo artists before they met each other. They refer to themselves as mirrors of each other, as family, as people who immediately clicked, as being good at what they do because they aren't romantically involved. On the other hand, they also acknowledge their differences. JPW indicates that he's more introverted and has a lower shit bar than Joy does, while Joy mentions that she tends to overanalyze while he's good at simplifying. Joy and JPW emphasized that they prioritize the opinions of their respective spouses first before starting the civil wars. JPW mentioned in 2011 in an interview that quote, my initial hesitation on restarting his musical career was more along the lines of one, do I even want to do this anymore? Two, do I want to convince someone else to hitch their wagon to me? And three, is she even into it? Because we hadn't had that conversation. I had the conversation with my wife before even talking to Joy. And once I talked to Joy about it, we all had a big family meeting and never looked back since. FYI, Jenny is JPW's wife. That is her name. She's going to come back. She's going to pop back a couple of times. So remember that name. And Nate is Joy's husband. Looking for a name for their project, Joy came up with the Civil Wars, which has no historical connotations, but rather is based on the quote, Be kind for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle attributed to the writer Isaac McLaren. According to Joy, as I was thinking about the music we make, the sense of battle seemed applicable. And she had no idea. We're going to cover that as we go here. So starting in April 7th, 2009, their first performance as the Civil Wars takes place in Nashville. This marks the moment when Joy's former producer, Charlie Peacock, who was invited as part of the audience, decided to work with them for their upcoming album, their upcoming first album. June 30th, 2009, some songs are released as a free download, including their debut song, Falling and Poison and Wine. They are assumed to be lovers right off the bat, based on how close they are physically with each other and the way they look at each other. Note that rather than arguing this, TCW's The Civil War's Chemistry is already being marketed ambiguously as romantic to their audience. So Joy confirms this in a 2013 interview with NPR by mentioning that they were, playing with fire. And this was part of the, unforeseen myth that we inadvertently created. So from 2009 to 2010, they ended up touring together on July 25th, April 18th, November 12th, and five different times in December. following the popularity from that drop of poison and wine online. In 2010, their tour basically included 26 performances. This is important because the total number of tour dates during this time is only around 16 to 17 % of how much they would tour in total the next year in 2011. So it's going to increase by 85 % as they go forward. But first, January 10, 2011. The tour dates begin ramping up with five performances in January, 12 in February. Their first album, Barton Hollow, is released, produced by Charlie Peacock, on February 1st, 2011. The album becomes very well received and achieves number one across multiple Billboard charts. By October 4th, 2011, in a secret session for Barton Hollow, they emphasize that there is no competition in their songwriting process. JPW asserts it's never quote, I want to sing this part, I want to sing that part, et cetera. And Joy finishes his thought by adding that it's always quote, no, you should be singing this part. Both are constantly laughing, smiling with each other. Ironically, they joke quote, come back to this in five years when asked about whether there's any conflict or issues in the creative process. September 28th, 2011. A clip of their tour diary shows both JPW and Joy being elated and sharing a hug together after seeing their venue with Adele at Royal Albert Hall in the UK. JPW, Joy and Adele, sometime during this time, all get the same tattoo of three dots together. This is important to just show how close and how happy they were just in 2011, September 28th, 2011, because it is kind of shocking how much this takes a turn. So December 4th, 2011. A clip is released of both of them attending the 54th Grammy Awards, feeling as if their nominations for Folk Album of the Year and Country Duo are surreal. They both emphasize that while creating Barton Hollow, they never believed they would be nominated or in the running for an award. Both have friendly banter about whose house the award will be in if they are successful. January 10, 2012. By this time, the Civil Wars have been touring nonstop. In January 2012 alone, they had 12 stops. By March 2012, the Civil Wars do an interview with BBC Breakfast where they are asked the question about whether they are married or not. Both Joy and JPW assure them that they are happily married to other people, with JPW emphasizing that, quote, we're both family. Joy seems to be more enthused about talking about their upcoming schedule, touring schedule, which has almost back to back shows. Well, JPW is much more quiet and reserved on that front. June 2012. Joy's first son, Miles, is born. There were many speculations at the time that having a child contributed to the breakup, in addition to rumors about Joy wanting to prioritize family. But Joy adamantly said in a 2013 interview how hurtful those rumors were for her and that she loved being a new mom and having Miles on the road together with her. And fun fact, while pregnant, Joy's vocal range actually dropped lower than usual due to her having a son and having more testosterone in her system. But after birth, The higher ranges came back to her, but the lower, the new lower ranges actually stayed. So her pregnancy actually expanded her total vocal range in the end. Pregnancy actually helping someone's career. That's notable, right? How often does that ever happen? So September 2012, according to a Rolling Stone article, the bulk of their second album was recorded in a two week session in September. This is the album we're here to talk about today. Joy mentions in 2013 that they completed most of the work in the same studio that they used for Barton Hollow and that JPW seemed happy bringing out the electric guitar and experimenting with some new sounds while she was nursing her child in between takes. There are a few clips of the recording sessions, one for Dust to Dust and one for the track, The One That Got Away, that both show JPW and Joy being a lot more subdued, smiling a lot less, having some tension during this recording process. There is a clip for the recording of Sacred Heart, however, where they seem happier as in the past or as happy as in the past. And there's a reason for that. That one was recorded a little differently than the others in this same recording session. We're going to get to that when we go track by track and get to Sacred Heart. So October 2012 at Hardly Strictly Bluegrass Festival, say that 10 times fast, the Civil Wars performs publicly for the first time live one of their songs for their upcoming album, the song titled Same Old Same Old. The lyrics include Quote, I'm gonna break things. I'm gonna cross the line and make you wake up, cause you won't. Cause I do love you, but if you think that I can stay in the same old, old, well, I don't. Although fans speculate this was one about JPW and Joy's relationship at the time, Joy explicitly mentioned in an interview that she finds the lyrics more relevant in describing her relationship with her husband instead. Don't know if that's better or worse, but, that will come back to play in a little bit here as well. So October 17th, 2012. Brian Mansfield, a music historian from Nashville, asked JPW in a tweet, quote, looking forward to the unplugged album, but wondering what did you have that needed unplugging? JPW retweets with a comment, Joy's mic. On the one hand, this aligns with JPW's dry humor. In hindsight, some fans interpret this as the first reveal of underlying tensions around the division of labor with recording between the two of them. So late October to early November in 2012, some strain can be seen during this period at the Olympia Theater in Dublin. They are again still joking around. That was October 29th. While at the Glasgow performance, everyone looks relatively happy. That's November 1st. There are a lot of positive comments from fans and both Joy and JPW look thrilled when the crowd joins in for the first time to sing, I've Got a Friend. However, in Cambridge, There are some reports that Joy seems to be turned away from JPW and that JPW rarely looks at her during multiple songs. That is November 2nd. And then we get to November 6th. Clips of the famous Camden Roundhouse performance, especially of poison and wine, are circulated. This would be the Civil War's last live performance together in history. Fans comment on how they never look at each other during the set list, that they completely avoid eye contact, and that Joy is crying by the end of the show. That same day, an official announcement is made on Facebook about the cancellation of the tour. Joy mentions in several interviews about feeling like JPW was only inches away, yet, quote, I felt like I was looking through a telescope to find him. She confirms that the last time they spoke together properly was at the Roundhouse. However, the hiatus is a mutual decision. Joy indicates that she and JPW had a synergy. And when it was no longer working, quote, neither of us wanted to pretend and be on stage like that and put a crowd through something like. Moreover, she expresses that she felt like both of them lost sight of the relationships that were most important to them, with Joy suggesting that her marriage struggled due to work, while JPW also hints at this in the album Liner Notes. Joy also says that professionally, quote, when you work so closely with another person as John Paul and I have, it's not like we had a band to bounce things off of. That dynamic can be a lot harder to handle when you have a difference of opinion or a difference of ambition. January 2013. The second album is officially finished. In an August 2013 interview, producer Charlie Peacock compares himself to Switzerland during the recording process. As both Joy and JPW coming into the studio separately to re-record parts, they would not do it together anymore. Peacock is quoted by comparing the smooth process of producing Barton Hollow, their first album, to the tense one of the eponymous The Civil War's second album. If they were on the side of JPW's ways of working before, Joy's ways were now dominant. Too much analysis, talking, and the creating of options is not JPW's sweet spot. This is all Charlie Peacock's talking. While Joy loves to turn over every stone in search of the best among a thousand choices. So February 10th, 2013, the Civil Wars attend the 55th Grammy Awards ceremony for Safe and Sound with Taylor Swift and T-Bone. Is it Burnett or Bernay? do you know it? Burnett. Burnett. never know. One of those things I always read in my mind and I always say Burnett and then I'm like, no, it's too. That can't be right. He's one of the producers who can decide what he wants to do like every 10 years and it automatically. Well, you see his name everywhere. So it's like he is he's a name and I'm not I don't you don't even know the whole list of everything he's done, but he is still a household name. So they attend the 55th Grammy Awards with Taylor Swift and T-Burn Burnett. Fans notice in an interview how both JPW and Joy completely avoid eye contact, constantly having Taylor and T-Bone in between them. Note that at this time, they had not been on speaking terms since November of the previous year, so three solid months. June 18th, 2013, the Civil War's album is released. JPW is absent from all the promotions, while Joy continues to take interviews to promote the album. They release a music video for The One That Got Away, which used clips from the recording sessions to show tension in their relationship as they were no longer on speaking terms and therefore they couldn't actually make a new music video. So they just had to take the footage that was available. It works really well with this track. We're gonna get there when we get to the track by track. Joy remains adamant on not speaking on behalf of JPW and emphasizes her continued respect for him while also acknowledging that the songwriting process for this album involved more struggle. In the album liner notes, JPW emphasizes his love for his wife, Jenny, by writing, quote, This is the one thing that has ever really mattered, although sometimes I lost sight of it. July 31st, 2013, someone creates a tweet saying that the new album is, quote, too much joy. Jenny, JPW's wife, retweets it with a smiley face. That's the tweet. And agrees with other tweets that support JPW solo debut. Fans grow frustrated over Jenny's passive aggressive posts in light of JPW's silence on everything regarding the Civil Wars, as well as the fact that there are some rumors online that the reason Joy is so heavily featured in the album was because JPW was already distancing himself before it was completed. August 2nd, 2013, in a New York Times interview, Joy said that the creative disagreements built for several months and acknowledged that she, has a lot of ambition. She attributes some of this to personality differences, noting that, I believe in pushing boundaries and finding new territory and expanding. I personally felt like John Paul was more of the ilk that things would happen organically. And if it ain't broke, don't fix it. She dismisses romantic feelings, emphasizing that, quote, I was not in love with John Paul, but I was and am in love with the band. January 26, 2014, JPW takes his wife, Jenny, and a son to the 56th Grammy Awards. Fans notice that both he and his wife have lost a significant amount of weight. The night ends with controversy though, when the Civil Wars wins best country duo for From This Valley. And John Paul White bizarrely ends up thanking his wife, his kids, literally his plumber, but not Joy. The day after, damage control arrives when he goes to Twitter and apologizes for his quote, classless omission of joy, Charlie Peacock, Richie Biggs, and Nate Yaton. August 5th, 2014, the Civil Wars officially announced their hiatus, which continues to this day. And they announced that on Twitter. Two last little bits in 2015, Joy mentioned she has made attempts to speak with JPW since the hiatus was announced, but quote, you have to learn to let go. She also notes that at this time, her and Nate's marriage was straining in light of how her husband was the manager and responsible for the Civil Wars business strategy. Joy frequently mentioned in interviews being open to reconciling with JPW and wanting to have the Civil Wars reunite eventually. In 2016, Joy releases a track, What a Good Woman Does, a solo track, which she explicitly mentions is more about the breakup of the Civil Wars and has lyrics such as, I can't carry the weight of this war. I can't do it anymore. Everyone's wounded. Nobody's won. Hear me. I haven't lost my voice without you near me. I can tell the truth about you. I can't, I can tell the truth about you leaving, but that's not what a good woman does. Don't feel sorry for yourself. You've got everything you want. Everyone's watching you pick up and run." Unquote. Yikes. She mentions in an interview with Marie Claire that quote, I used to think if you're a good woman, you can't be messy and you can't be mad. I've been learning that neither of those things are true. I've learned sometimes it is enough to let yourself feel the anger. And that is the truncated history of the Civil Wars and this album. And probably why I had never heard of the band or this album before Maria brought it up to talk about on this podcast. So it had missed me. It had passed me by. And I will say, you the fact that they were it was basically 2009 to 2013 that were their heyday. I was so checked out. of pop culture during those years. Actually, the OOs and into the early 10s. think it coincided with Adele's sort of, you know, rise rise. Yeah, lack of better term. I think. Yeah, because I feel like her second album, they were the opening tour act, I believe for her second gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. So now that we know all that context here, Maria, What is your history with this album and why did you choose to want to talk about it on this podcast? So I wanted to steer away from a movie or a TV show because there are things that people see from Brunella Bombshell and they see from Y-Nand all the time. I wanted to throw the big curveball in there and talk about something that's really multifaceted, that has a place in pop culture, that doesn't get talked about a lot. But We'll get to it in the track by track. I will tell you which track was the one that made me recently go back and say, hey, this album was actually kind of a sleeper hit and something that had a big impact on my own coming of age or coming of professionalism in an industry that I hold very dear that still has lessons now in my new industry. Choosing to do a wine pairing for an album, I think lends itself to a whole bunch of different takes on it. So because the Civil Wars have, like we've mentioned, one foot in rock, one foot in bluegrass, one foot in country, there's some really strong gospel roots in part of this album. There's so many different ways you can pair this album. And I'm really, really fascinated to see the three things we come up with to pair. So that's what I wanted to bring here. And I will say compared, you know, having not heard of the band before, like I did and I had time to go back. Like I listened to Barton Hollow as well. I listened to some of the early released tracks. And like this is this second album is there's more range on it than Barton Hollow. Like it's such a you can you can see the influence if it's true that Joy made them stretch. They stretch. you know, and they go places and there's more variety and you can hear all the many things that these two can do together, which is what I think it is such a shame that it didn't work out. Though on the note of Tassiter and Men, I will say, do any of you have like my take on this? Like reading this history, I'm like, okay, so you got a guy like I'm sorry, I got to blame JPW for almost all of this because this is a guy who just is like, doesn't want to talk about it. doesn't want to talk about shit. And he's sort of like, it either it either happens natural. think I think Charlie Peacock was dead on when he's like, he wants it to happen organically. Yeah. And if it doesn't, if it's like, well, let's let's explore this. know, and then he just freezes and doesn't say anything. He won't work through it. He won't find a new rhythm with that partner. He's just like, he just quietly gets passive aggressive and slinks out. And I'm like, dude, I I think part of the issue for him because he has a bit mercurial, know, having heard of him, I've been aware of him for a while before this. He is the kind of guy who, how to say this, I think the success and the sort of mainstreamness of that venture just irritated the hell out of him. Like it just. irritated him to know in and Dave will say, I'm kind of that ilk myself to like is there times as a writer, you know, the script I, you know, that sort of really toiled over dynamic script that could create a new genre. People read it and they're just like, that's amazing. I don't know what to do with it. But that, you know, sort of generic nonsense just sings and people just lose their mind over it. I instantly judge them because they like the shit I created. and I don't want to be associated with them ever again. So no, I get them. I get your JPW. If you're out there, know, let's meet up and. And for you, Maria, do you have any do you have a different take or do you think that pretty well aligns with your own thoughts? You covered a lot and I am cackling with delight because this is already a conversation that I was so looking forward to having. To include a little bit more of my history here, after I graduated from undergrad, I thought I was going to go to school from musicology. I thought I was going to be getting my PhD, holding myself up in a library for years on end. And I found that now I can do that with wine. So I can drink what I study, which is great. But the musicologist in me is scratching at every porous little detail. That Reddit post is mind It's bonkers, right? the amount of detail that goes into dissecting every little move. When I first heard the album and heard about the band's breakup, there was a rumor going around that they had truly split due to major artistic differences, that she wanted to drive things in a very pop-oriented direction, and he wanted to go full on bluegrass and rock. And that tension you can really hear in the album too. But the smiley tweet from Jenny. It just yeah, yeah, which which means that he was talking to her about it at home But not with the person he needed to talk about it with right which is yeah, it's like that that That conflict avoidance, which is also something that of course if he isn't introverted heart Like I get that like a lot of people are conflict even people who aren't introverts like we all get into bad habits with conflict avoidance rather than make them healthy conflicts we just avoid it completely, which is not any better than having a bad conflict at the end of the day, right? It just stretches it out longer. And I will say, I think Dallas had something to say there too. And we might have the same thing to say here, Dallas, when you were saying about how you can hear on this album, that creative push-pull. I think for sure, because Jenny even went on, like her first solo album after this was pop. Like she went like full blown, like you can hear the Adele influences in that one. And you're just like, whoa. But then her second solo album, she kind of came back to her Civil Wars roots at that point. more it's more Barton Holloway in its way. And it was interesting that it's like she had to do it. She had to try it. She had to go out there. She might even do more of it in the future. We don't know. But it's you know, she has more interest than just the one sound and the one like I only want to do this one thing and there's no reason to ever stretch or go anywhere else. And even when she did do something else, it's not like she abandoned. where she came from or the music she had done in the past forever. I mean, she did it the next even her second album. She's like, OK, now I want to do some more of that. Let's go back and do it my way. Now she didn't have JPW with her. So it's like I'm going to collaborate with other people and do this. But I think, again, that's what makes this album so good is it's got multiple influences you can feel. they're in there enriching the songs. Yeah, there are some alternate takes that you can listen to on Spotify for some of the songs on this track. on this album, where you can get like some some more upbeat and more bombastic songs, they have a quieter version of it that you can listen to. And then they chose, OK, we have enough quiet songs in this album. Let's get that bombastic version out there. I think I it's sonically speaking, I think that tension is so clear and it's so forefront in their styles coming together because she does have that kind of mainstream kind of mainstream pop kind of country thing I suppose and he does sort of lean towards that country bluegrassy kind of thing when those who come together and also the production style is so intimate. The production style of this record is just so intimate. So when you're listening to it, it does feel like a conversation between these two people, which is why immediately it was so sexy. to the ear and to the audiences, which is also why immediately I mean, immediately after that for that thing dropped. The speculation was just everywhere. mean, TMZ was covering it. was like, you know, I remember an item about what her potentially being pregnant. And, and I think his wife even said something and like redacted a tweet or something at the time crazy. But It was that wasn't the smiley face. No, shocking. What else did she put? No, it's this is the time of TMZ. So they were you know, this is they're like all over this nonsense thing. Yeah, this is like just delicious for these guys. But I do think that tension is so evident in that in this this record, specifically that it just made for this sort of sonic like it's just so textural and so intimate and you feel like you're in the room while these two are making love to one another on the microphone. Yeah. can I just say, we'll talk more about this when we go track by track. But when I when Maria first said, Hey, how about this album? And I was like, Okay, great. And I think literally later that day, I was like, I take I take a daily walk. So I'm like, let's put it on. Let's listen to it. And I had just looked at the Spotify bio. which gives you nothing. It tells you nothing about these two. And it's like, it's so clean. Like as far as the Spotify bio is concerned, they haven't even broken up. Right. It's like, there's still a band. I was like, But I'm like, but no albums since 2013. So I quickly like glanced on at Google and I saw that, yep, they just ended at 2013. And so I had no information yet. The first time I listened to it, I had no idea what the situation was. And when I saw, I'm like, well, I guess, and it's a duo and it's a man and a woman. I'm like, they fell apart, like, you know, maybe it was romantic and it fell apart after they made this album. Then I listened to track number one and I was like, shit, maybe it fell apart while they were making this album. The very first song that was my first thought is I was like, this is uncomfortable. Like, I feel like you're in the room while the argument that destroys a couple is happening. And you're just like, I... don't want to move, but I also want to be anywhere else but here. And that said, the song is brilliant. I mean, it's so good. You don't want to not listen to the song. But there is that it's so, as Dallas said, intimate and so on point of what is happening between these two while they made this album. It is uncomfortable. And that's that's what drew people in. And I'll tell you right now, at the time, this album, I remember we purchased the album and we were going on a road trip and I don't remember where maybe it was to tell your rides music festival or something. I don't remember. But we had like eight hours to drive to get there and put this album on. And it was it was like listening to someone's therapy session and you can't you can't tune away. And occasionally you'll find acts that kind of tap into that thing because it is it did sort of tap into a voyeuristic kind of thing. I think in the eye in the in terms of the audiences and the listener because You know the songs are so specific and they're so the narratives are so intimate, you know, for lack of better term that you can't help but wonder what the hell is the relationship between these two people and all credit goes to the producer for understanding how to take these two disparate elements, put them in a room together and just let them sing because this. sort of sonic and ideological and musical style kind of fight inspiring that they have just it sings it's just kind of a perfect collaboration yeah sonically at least i am convinced that this is one of the top five breakup albums ever made absolutely i think rumors and civil wars are like probably one and two for me good reference to rumors too yeah that's a very good point yeah yeah Apparently Stevie Nicks has said, yeah, Civil War is kind of Stevie and C-coded. yeah. She could hear them. She's like, it's young us. Yeah. I can hear this. Yeah. It's just wild to think about that. And I feel like with Daisy Jones, that's been popping up kind of in people's bubbles lately. gosh, the art of the breakup album, there's just something so cool and you can't. listen to it, but you also can't not right. It's right being on the fly of a wall of a really articulate argument. Yes, never. is what which is what we all wish we could experience. I think ultimately like those breakup albums really, you know, I come from the culture of the mix tape like when Dave and I I don't know how old you are Maria, but when Dave and I are young, if you had deep emotions, you would make a tape, right or a seed. D, right? If you're really balls. And he's talking about a cassette tape. yeah, is cassette guys. you would, if you go to school, it would be this curated kind of expression of everything from the fire to the ice, all of it. And so in terms of like those breakup records, I think that is kind of a universal thing because ultimately, you know, we all have something we really would love to communicate clearly and sonically because nothing does it better. music, it's innate to, you know, to our being. So when these sort of moments come along, like rumors like this album, it does strike some sort of chord and you can see it in the way people engage with it, particularly this album. Anyone I have conversations with about this album when it came out, it was sort of the same thing. It was sort of like, I don't know why I like this so much. And it is because it pulls you into the room. it pulls you into the recording, into the studio, into the session, into the dynamic between these two people, whatever that is. Right. And it's fascinating because in my mind, I'm like just trying to imagine the recording sessions while they were doing this. writing sessions. my gosh. it's half the breakup is happening before your eyes while they're singing and half a dissection of a breakup that's already happened. Like Dallas said, it's like therapy. But they had to keep going to finish this album. So it's like they're looking back while it's present day. And that's a tension that I've never experienced. It's the death of a relationship in slow motion with the soundtrack. It's the death of a relationship in slow motion with the soundtrack. Yes. Well, guys, let's get to before we go track by track. What are we drinking with this? Maria, I'm so interested. are you drinking, Maria? So I was inspired a little bit by the album art and a little bit by the tone and maybe a past reference or two to a Barton Hollow track. I wanted to find a wine that was incredibly complex, probably likely red because red just seems so moody. And there's something about this album with the layers of like where there's smoke, there's fire. There's talk about dried flowers and like the promise of so many things that unfold layer after layer and seeing complexity that's earthy but also a little bit fighting at first but when you open it up it kind of chills out a little bit and the end of the album is finishes on a sweeter note than the one that got away. I am going to Barolo. So I paired it with, man, I should have kept the bottle. I treated myself and I actually bought the bottle. And we are doing this one week later than anticipated. anything we opened beforehand, gone. So I paired the album with the 2019 G.D. Vyra, Brico De Le Viola, single Vineyard Barolo. The name translates to Hill of Violets. The vineyard where those specific grapes are planted is one of the most sunlit vineyards that Vira has. So Brico de la Viola is not only their big flagship prestige wine, the name translates to Hill of the Violets because the violets are on the bottom of that hill and they also benefit from all that beautiful direct sunlight. There is a saying in the wine world that what grows together goes together. And sometimes if you have vineyards that are surrounded by eucalyptus trees or like a specific soil, you can almost taste that in the wine. there is something about that prominent dried violet on the nose that just keeps giving layer after layer. It's intoxicating. That's true. Yeah. Start off with all that tart fruit, go with all the smoke and it's just a bottle that will last to the whole album. Then you'll be thinking about it a lot longer. Nice. Multiple listens. Yeah, for sure. With the Barolo. Yeah, yeah. Dave, I'm so curious. I didn't read yours in the notes, so I'm actually quite curious. OK. I did want to say on the what grows together, what grows together, goes together thing. My first experience of that, just as a quick anecdote, was actually with coffee and not wine. But there was a coffee at a place that I worked at when I used to work at cafes, and they had a coffee that was grown in a fruit farm. And it was all surrounded by different fruits, but they had these coffee trees there and they made a natural style coffee. So, you you let it ferment on the fruit of the bean where the bean is basically the pit, right? It's not technically not a bean. We just call it a bean. But coffee beans are actually fruit pits. And they let the they let it soak up as much of its own fruit that was grown on this wild fruit farm. And I mean, this thing smelled and tasted like fucking fruit loops. It was crazy. It was like this. This complete fruit salad of a coffee that was all in there. like bananas and mango and apples and pears. No. And this was many years ago. So it's a question like does it has this farm been subsumed into a larger farm and so on and so forth these days because there is no guarantee it actually exists as its own farm anymore. The way it was so good. But it blew my mind because the owner when we got this coffee, it was that was his big thing is he went chew a tasting, discovered this coffee, bought it for this roaster that I worked for. And he was just like, this is fascinating and told us all the story. And you could tell, you could taste all that fruit farm in this coffee. And I've never tasted a coffee that fruity ever since. Like it was wild. So it absolutely happened. My anecdotal version of that is steak, slight derivation. But I remember what the cows eat. But the cows, would eat this arugula variation. know, arugula has a very sort of spicy kind of bottom note to it. And the beef itself has a very sort of spicy kind of flavor in the fat. It's fantastic. So yeah, if it grows together or raises together, maybe. don't know. All right. All right. So. My thought, I actually went with a white on this one. for me, this music had this kind of as heavy as some of the themes were in your listening to that breakup. It still had this almost ethereal quality to a lot of the music where there was this lightness that the themes were heavy, but they were so catchy and so memorable and they work so well as a piece. And even the way they sing. Dallas, I think you were mentioning how these two, they sing together, like something very intimate about this album and the quality of how they recorded it. And there was this element where it's like, Reds almost seem too heavy and too dense for this album that just made me feel like even with its quote unquote heavy themes, I was like, I just want something more buoyant, like, and something more like you float with this album through these people and they're dissolved. It's a dissolution of a relationship. You're almost listening to it dissolve rather than break. And so there was just this element of airiness to it where I was like, I need something lighter. I need something that's gonna match that. I was also thinking I really wanted, know, this is called the Civil Wars, it's a duo and how they came together and how they worked so well together, regardless of how emotionally they fell apart. So I really wanted to blend of primarily, at least primarily two grapes that were going to sing like this. So I went with this is heritage Saint-Mont from the Saint-Mont Appalachian in France. And this is, I've got a lot to explain about it here. I just wanted to show everyone a picture of it real quick. So heritage de Saint-Mont is the winery and Saint-Mont is a very small Appalachian in Southwestern France, foothills of the Pyrenees. It's about 1,250 hectares all told. And to put that into perspective for everyone out there, that's basically one sixth the size of Santa Barbara County alone. So in Santa Barbara is not a large county in California. That would be like Paso and Napa and Sonoma and whatnot. Like Santa Barbara is relatively small and this is one sixth the size of that. Now that said, this particular wine is actually kind of out there. You can find it. I bought this from a website I love to buy from called Wine Access here in the States. And then I've noticed though, it's a couple of different places that will ship are carrying this wine anywhere from about 15 to $30. The prices are kind of all over the place, but this is a blend of three native American native grapes to Southwestern France. It is predominantly two. And then it's got one more that's a tiny little assist. And that's like the Charlie Peacock. I think of the group, the one, the Switzerland that holds it all together and makes a click, but the other two are doing all the real heavy lifting and that one is just rounding it out that way. And this is predominantly a 65 % gross manzang. And gross manzang for the, the region you can find gross and petite manzang predominantly is a larger area in France called Urnsong. And they do a lot of like sweet, semi-sweet and dry versions of usually a blend of gross and petite men's saying in this case, it's just gross men saying 65%. And that's going to bring in most of the fruit flavors in the wine. I get a lot of like there's kind of a yellow pear on the sweet side and then this crisp green apple note on the on the more sharp and tart size side. And they're equally they're both battling in the glass for your for your attention there. Like neither overpowers the other, but they're both definitely there. Then you've got about 30 % of a Petite Corbu. And this is one I'm not all that familiar with, but this is the other hefty amount in there. And Petite Corbu is gonna bring body to the wine. And this wine definitely has a little bit of weight to kind of match the weight of the song. So it's got that oiliness, kind of like a Semi-On, where you've got just that slight unctuousness where you're like, okay, good, this is not too light. It's got about medium acidity. And then this little bit of body gets thrown in there. The Petite Corbu is also going to add, and by the way, these three grapes that are in here, each comes from a different soil type in the region that each represents the three soil types of the entire region. And that is clay limestone, variegated clay, and russet colored sand. And each one comes from a different one to kind of round. So everyone's bringing a little something different. So you've got the Menseng, the Corbu that also adds like a honey aromatic. to the wine and there's a little bit of honey, because know, aromatics always affect how you taste and like, it's got a nice little sweet taste of honey in there as well. And then lastly, there is a grape 5 % only of a grape I've never heard of before called a Ruffiac. And that grape, one, it makes me always want to scream Ruffio. Because it's just like a Ruffiac. And I just picture Ruffio from the movie Hook every time I say or look at this word. A R R U F I A C. A RUFIAC. Almost exactly as it sounds, but double the R. And this is, once again, this is pretty much the Saint-Mont and I think the Southwestern France area. there's no other place in the world that even grows it. I don't think. Obviously you always caveat those things because who knows? So you're always kind of like, well, for the most part, this is where you're going to find a RUFIAC. And it's always a supporting player. It's never a heavy. heavy player in any wine. It's apparently very tannic and tends to be bitter and tends to not be great on its own, but it can add an aromatic. It's very aromatic. And one thing that I love about this, and I noticed this in this wine without not even realizing what the scrape was. It has this weird mineral smell to it that was really sharp and interesting. And apparently a ruffiac has a distinct aromatic of gun flint. And I was like, one, yes. mean, power of suggestion, but yes, that is what I'm smelling now, now that I've read that, right? And so like, when I smelled it, I was like, yeah, that is what that is. And this is the civil wars about a battle between two people. And I'm like, yes, you need, you need the scent of gun flint, just peppering, just enough that it's not, it's still very pleasant. It really is just giving it that mineral quality that honestly, a lot of people like in wine when it's balanced. So this is those three things. giving you a lighter wine with a little bit of body, that slight scent of Gunflint and both sweet and sharp tart crisp notes. This is my blend, Heritage Saint-Mont from Saint-Mont. You can find it online and we will of course have a link down below as well for all these wines. And that's me. Good one. that your first choice Dave or did you start someplace else? I don't remember. It was my first. My first final choice, which basically means like I was just considering things, but it was the first one that I was like this. And I think I wanted to blend. was like, what are two grapes that just go together and they duke it out in the bottle, in the glass, but always in a way that what comes out of it is like amazing. And I just kept trying to think of something that would really work and match this music. And in the end, I had this bottle. And I didn't know what it was going to taste like because I did not. was not really familiar with these three grapes. I knew about Gross Men Sang and Petite Corbu. I'd never heard of a Ruffiac. I'd never had a bottle from St. Mont. So I was just like, so I cracked it open on a lark and I was like, I kind of read up about it and I was like, that sounds promising. Let's actually taste it and see what see what we get. And yeah, yeah. So once I tasted it, I was like, I listened to the album and just had a glass. And by the end of it, I was like, this This is my baby. Let's see where, now let's write this up. So yeah, how about you, Doug? So yeah, this one, I'm not gonna say it stumped me, but it definitely added a layer or two to my process, pairing process. So much so, I ended up having to free associate, because that's also part of my sort of creative process. I do like to free associate when I'm world building or something or writing, but. I sat with it and had to come up with four or five adjectives and just sort of descriptors about the album and about the process, about the characters involved in the album. And for me, you know, it's got just tons of layers. You could spend all day peeling back the layers and the influences of each song. And, you know, it's edgy in its own way. It sits outside of country. It sits slightly outside of bluegrass. It sits slightly outside of pop. It's also nostalgic. It's familiar, but also it's brand new territory. It's really intimate, but sonically, it's really intimate. the sort of narrative that the you know, the sort of the pros of the album is is sort of really existential, for lack of a better term, right? relationship stuff, some universal kinds of stuff. So I knew I wanted that kind of reflected those things reflected somehow in the wine. Which meant that I was probably going to go with a very ancient grape in a New World Appalachian or presentation. you know, I didn't want to go with any of the sort of standards. So I decided to kind of hone in on that a bit and find a wine that was kind of pastoral because this album to me feels very pastoral. It feels like they made it out in the barn in the middle of a pasture where there was sort of wild thyme and wild lemons and there was, you know, there are apples around, there's bees, know, someone's cultivating bees. And so they've access to honey. It just feels really sort of pastoral. That's what I imagine the production was. Clearly it wasn't that, but that's kind of what I get from it. And I eventually honed in on one particular grape. It is a very ancient, one of the oldest Italian grapes, one of the oldest currently presenting Italian grapes, I should say, from the border with Slovenia. It is rarely seen anymore. because it's it's kind of fickle. It is typically light and body and very fruity and floral and it has a really biting acidity just like this album because it is all of those things. It is floral. is kind of, you know, lush and fruity, but it's also biting the things these guys discuss with one another in their relationships. So I went with the Rebola Jala, as they say. it's how did Rebola Jala. Rebola Jala. Yeah. OK. OK. Unfortunately, unfortunately, the the Santa Barbara Appalachian, which I've chosen, is they truncated, I suppose the pronunciation and added an extra vowel. I see just for their own. I see. Cool. Okay. But anyway, I chose the riabola. Jala, it is hazelnutty at its core. You've got the baking spices, you've got the Meyer lemon, it even has the creamy curd thing you can find occasionally in certain whites. It is white, by the way. Pure white pure pure vintage here pure varietal. But most of all it has this stony minerality. That is. Unlike the minerality you can find in any of those other whites, particularly from the you find that mineral minerality up in Mendocino Valley and. you know that region it is. Like I said, an extraordinarily ancient vintage or a varietal. is. Weirdly satisfying, but confounding and confusing. The process is pretty interesting. It's a fermented whole cluster with native yeast open tank using punch downs. Post two weeks the must is pressed and the wine is an age for 18 months in neutral barrels. It's 13.2 % by volume. It is a very small production, a very small production, only 200 cases roughly. yeah. It's kind of fantastic. So yeah, I chose the Mathiason. Rebolo, Gialla, and you can, I think, find a 20. You probably have to order a direct from the winery though. assuming there are not going to anywhere else. can find them. But this is a Napa Valley presentation of this wine and it fits so perfectly. Generally, I will choose the you say it was Santa Barbara? Wait, wait. this Barbara? I misspoke. Not Santa Barbara. Napa Valley. Okay. Okay. Okay. But generally, I tried to find the wine I want to drink as I inhabit the world of whatever the IP is. So, you know, I imagine myself skulking around the outside of the studio, just popping my head in the window listening, you know, with a glass of wine. I'm the weird brown guy who keeps popping in and out just listening, you know, throwing back a glass of wine. And this would be it. It is it's mean, I had never had this this varietal before full varietal. It's been blended in things before. But yeah, I love it. Cool. Very cool. Widely different takes. But honestly, some of our reasoning was was largely in line with each other. We just found different ways to express that through the wine. So folks, those are your three wines. We will circle back to that after going track by track. This is going to basically end part one. So thanks so much for listening, everybody. We will be back tomorrow with part two of our coverage of the Civil Wars. And in part two, we will go track by track through this entire album so you can see exactly why we think this was worth the Civil War that it took. to make this album come into existence. Once again, with Maria Banson, we will introduce her again in part two. Thanks so much for listening. Definitely check her out on the Brunello Bombshell on Substack. That's BrunelloBombshell.Substack.com. There will be a link down below in the description of this episode and we will catch you tomorrow for the part two conclusion. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Catch you then. you