Wine and...TV: SEVERANCE Season 1, Part 3 - Episodes 4-6

The best TV show of 2022, sez us! This is the first in a 5-part series covering all of Severance Season 1, the show created by Dan Erikson, directed by Ben Stiller and Aoife McArdle, and starring Adam Scott.

Part 1: How Did This Get Made?
Part 2: Episodes 1-3 (and wine pairings with those episodes)
Part 3: Episodes 4-6 (and wine pairings with those episodes)
Part 4: Episodes 7-9 (and wine pairings with those episodes)
Part 5: Interview with Chris Black, Executive Producer and Writer on Severance

In this episode, we cover Episodes 4-6, all directed by Aoife McArdle, and cover the wine pairings for these episodes.

THE WINES:

DALLAS' WINE
2021 Cantine Barbera Notrix Perricone Terre Siciliane (Sicily, Italy)
Grape varieties: Perricone 90%, Catanese 10%
A lively ruby color with violet shades that meet a playful nose of red berries and geranium flowers. Its solid tannins define a medium-bodied palate, where spicy notes of star anise and ginger stand out against a persistent saline background.

DAVE'S WINE
2019 Red Newt Cellars Cabernet Franc, Glacier Ridge Vineyard, Finger Lakes, New York
Or any cool climate Cab Franc will likely do! Though this one from Glacier Ridge vineyards contains a smoky, earthy dimension that truly pairs with the noir-style of these episodes!

Chapters

• 3:48 Brief Overview
• 6:43 Episode 4: The You You Are
• 23:57 Episode 5: The Grim Barbarity of Optics and Design
• 38:56 Controlled Chaos Debate - We do NOT agree on this point!
• 46:14 The Three Female Writers on These Episodes
• 48:40 Controlled Chaos Debate (Resumed - we really do not agree on this!))
• 52:20 Episode 6: Hide and Seek
• 1:00:49 Dallas' Wine Pairing
• 1:05:31 Dave's Wine Pairing

Transcript

0:16

He's Dave and I'm Dallas and we have opinions on just about everything. Sometimes they're on point and sometimes they go down better with a glass of wine. Join us. This is the Wine and Podcast. Welcome back everybody to Wine and the show where we pair wine with movies, TV, music, books and comics. We deep dive into each piece of entertainment slash art that we and or our guests select. And then yes, we literally pair wines with the work at the end of each episode and tell you our reasoning behind each pairing. I just wanted to state that off front because a couple of people I think were surprised when they're like, you literally pair wine with this stuff. And it's like, yes, that is the point of the show. And hopefully when we do that, we offer a little bit of wine education to go along with it because wine is a complicated thing. And every little bit of info helps us navigate that world and offers an on -ramp if we're new or new -ish. Or even if you're not, even if you've been a wine nerd a long time, you always need more information, more of an on -ramp into the corners and sections of wine that you are less familiar with than others. Now, most of the time, the entertainment that we discuss on this show are things we love or at least very much like, but sometimes we may dissect something that we hate in a constructive manner, see if we can find the reason for that quote unquote hate, maybe find elements that we can admire anyway, but whatever it is you love, whatever it is you hate, There is a wine that pairs with that. All right, so if you like what you hear, please make sure to hit that follow or subscribe button. It does help the podcast grow and reach new listeners. And if you love us, please leave a five star review. And if you don't love us, just send us a message. No review, forget the review. That's a bad idea. You don't need to. This ain't Yelp, but send us a nice constructive. email, you can send us an email at wine, the letter N is in Nancy pod is in podcast, wine and pod at gmail .com. You can also find uncut lengthier versions of these episodes along with articles on the intersection between entertainment and wine interactive polls, bonus pairings, and more on our sub stack wine and dot sub stack .com. And if you're on your phone, You can also send us a text quote unquote. You'll find a clickable link at the beginning of the description of this episode doesn't work as an active link on every platform, but it does on most click that little phrase. It opens up your text app and you can send us a direct message via that that shows up in our Buzzsprout inbox and does not show us your full phone number. Never fear. It only shows us your final four digits, kind of like how a credit card shows up on a receipt. It's right here, right now, quick and easy way to send us a quick note. We actually got our very first one from John W, an old listener on our legacy show, the Wine and Comics pairing show. And he was like, woo, this is the wave of the future. A text, amazing. So thank you for that, John. You were the first to give that a try. The first who wasn't me to test that out to see what it looked like. to send us a message. So yes, a wave of the future. Send us a text directly from your phone. So folks, today we are returning to Severance Season One. In our previous episodes, we discussed the history and making of the show, then episodes one through three, and today we'll be discussing episodes four through six, the middle third of the season. Please make sure to check out those previous episodes. As we will not be recapping what we've already discussed, will simply say as a very brief overview, Severance is created by writer Dan Erickson, produced and developed by Ben Stiller and his production company Red Hour. The first three episodes were directed by Stiller and the first two episodes fully written by Erickson. Episodes four through six now are the first episodes not directed by Stiller, but by the only additional director on season one, Ify McArdle. Nope, I pronounced that wrong. It is E -Fuh, McArdle. A -O -I -F -E. I really am illiterate when it comes to Irish names, but someone on YouTube corrected us after part one of this five part mini series. So it is E -Fuh, McArdle. Please ignore all the E -Fees that I say as we go. Thank you very much. Back to our scheduled programming. Severin stars Zach Cherry, Britt Lauer, Trammell Tillman, Jen Tulloch, Dechen Lachman, Michael Cernus, John Turturro, Christopher Walken, and Patricia, motherfucking goddess, Arquette, and of course, Adam Scott in the lead role. All right, so one thing I did want to say before we start talking about these three episodes, Dallas, is that... Super interestingly, did note that the, so these are a different writer for every episode, episode four, five, and six each have a different writer and they're all women, which I thought was unique and I was like, ooh, good on you, Red Hour and Ben Stiller and whoever was hiring these people, I'm assuming it was them. Like good on you for having that. Cause Dan Erickson wrote episodes one and two. A man wrote, I'm gonna already forget his name, but we talked about him on episode three. Andrew somebody wrote episode three, right? Yep. And the fact that he then has three women and episode seven also written by a woman and then eight and nine once again by men. So that's a really good mix right there. That was that was well divided. And it makes sense for episodes four through six because we get really deep into Helly's sort of nightmare for lack of a better term. Yes. And a nursing center. yeah. Yeah. There was a lot of, and when I say the nursing center, it's not, it's not a nursing center exactly. Is it? It's a birthing center. So yeah. Right. Right. It's where pregnant women go to have the baby and have nursemaids attend to them. And what we're going to get into all of that when we talk about the episodes, but, let's just say this was very female POV centric. These episodes. A lot of content, probably required folks who writers who had a better POV than the right right watching from the sidelines like like all the male writers would have. So all right, let's talk about episode four, the UUR, which is the both title of the episode and it's the title of a book in the episode. The book was written by Adam Scott and Adam Scott's character's name is Mark. So let's call him Mark. So it's Mark's brother -in -law who is a writer and a real, he's a fun character. He's a real floof of a character that is mysterious character too because every time he has some sort of absent -minded sort of foppish kind of moment, there's always an odd dissonance afterwards, which you know, makes you think there's some darkness or some other turn of character that's going to happen in future. So I'm actually excited to see how this character plays out. For those of you who don't remember or don't know, Mark's brother -in -law seems to be engaged in some anti -Lumen sort of behavior. He's written a book, or at least anti -severance behavior. He's calling it the question, the morality and ethics. He's kind of anti -corporate, right? He's anti -capitalism, sort of. I'm not hugely so. He's not anarchist. He's not down with everything. But philosophically, in his books, tend to be this weird hybrid. They're kind of like self -help guides. Right. Right. And they're self -help guides that are all about be true to yourself and... don't, you your job does not define you and the workplace is not the reason for living and corporate you, the corporations need you more than you need them. Right. Which is of course true, which is one of the hardest and stickiest parts about capitalist society. Yeah. The bosses do need us more than we need them. And yet we've set it up to where they have the out lions share of the power and the leverage. So it's that and that's one of the quandaries we're stuck in in modern capitalism. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. But that said, I don't I have not noticed and maybe I've you know, this is a rewatch for me. So I've been trying to pay really close attention to like the details because I already know the broad strokes of the plot going in this time. And I was trying to really pay attention to like what who is this guy? And I don't know how anti -lumen specifically is I think lumen is against the things he says Because that's very against their philosophy obviously But because lumen seems to be very much about you know, they do worship a leader They do worship a founder, right? And we're gonna find out when we talk about these most recent episodes that there's a there is some serious like literal worship going on on this front. And of course, Mark's brother is all about don't worship anything. Like, you know, just be true to yourself, find your way, find your inner peace, all these fun things. But like that idea of worshiping a third party is not something I think he could ever recognize or think was the best way for. humanity or the best way for even, you know, individuals to thrive and be happy. All right. So the you you are. This is a story. What first my first thought, my first note that I wrote down and once again, folks, we're not this is not a spoiler free show on this series. So if you have not watched Severance season one and you have not watched episodes four through six, go watch them first, then come listen to the discussion because I cannot promise that I'm not going to give anything away. So my first note I wrote down, and this is something that I wrote, how is Milchik not feeling it too when he's in the break room with Halle R and we're watching them break her slowly because she has to repeat this written down statement over and over again until they say she means it. And she winds up, she mentions it later. that she wound up repeating it 1072 times. And the thing that killed me or the thing that made it really like question marky in my head was Milchik is unfazed. Having to listen and sit there to her do it 1072 times. And I'm like, that would break me. I wouldn't have to be the one to say it. I would still be, I'd be losing my mind in my wherewithal if I had to watch someone say it and every time be like, I'm afraid you still don't mean it again, know, kind of thing. So either he takes a perverse pleasure in this, where it's just like, this is something that like fuels him and he loves it, which doesn't really come across that way per se. this is where we compared Lumen to Scientology the last time. And I do think there is a true believer element to something going on here. But the fact that Milchik is fully primed, he's unaffected, he's ready to go again, the moment. So they even had to break that day and send her back up so her Audi could go to sleep and then come back the next day. And they started right back up again. So of course her Innie, almost no time has passed because she goes up the elevator, comes back, she slept. But again, from her POV, there was no time that has elapsed. So she had to go right back to it. But again, Milchek is just like, -huh. I think for Milchek, in terms of the character arc, I think, at least from this vantage point, what they're doing is setting up some dips and turns for Milchek's character in the future. Because there have been a few times in the first three episodes where based on his gaze, based on sort of the empathetic moment in his gaze, or even sympathetic moment in his gaze, Clearly there's some more, there's some backstory there that we're gonna definitely unearth as we get into it. But I do agree, it's either one of those two things. Either he's just, he's drank the Kool -Aid, he enjoys the Kool -Aid, he is truly devoted, he is deeply brainwashed in his own way, or there is some other kind of perverse sort of mechanism at play. I will say. Milchek is one of the more interesting characters in this mostly because they've done a damn good job of hiding his motivation completely. Yes. You know, he is purely, I think an avatar for the corporate kind of shill. because remember, at least for me, this, this whole world is the sort of personification of someone's version of hell. and it's sort of corporate hell and you know, I'm You know, I've got a couple of theories which we'll probably get into later on in the episodes. But I do think he's probably going to be a very significant character the more we move into this world. You know, they do such a great job of making you making it difficult to dislike him. Actually, it's very difficult to dislike that character, even though that character is essentially the harbinger. Like he is just, anytime he shows up, there's either some punishment or some weird moment that you're to have to just sort of just live in. I'm actually quite excited about that. Yeah. And what you said where he's the face of the company and literally like when he shows up, he's either smiling because the company's happy with you or he's frowning. Exactly. And giving you that stern gaze because the company's upset at you. Exactly. And he is almost literally an extension. of what the company is supposed to feel about what you're doing. And I think that's the thing is he's so automaton ish in that regard, where and again, on unblinking, unswerving on what's the unflag unflagging? What's word I'm looking for? This is better than flinching on. But he never winds down. He never lacks. unwavering. Unwavering. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So unwavering. I mean, just you never get the sense that this wears on him, even a tiny, tiny bit. He shows up and as far as we know, he doesn't have an any in and out. Right. You know, there's nothing. So he's this all the time. And as we'll find out in one of the next episodes, we're about to talk about he even continues this outside of the workplace sometimes and unwavering just and unflagging like he never there's never a lack of energy. to do everything he needs to do. And unlike Patricia Arquette's Cobell, who has a lot more, she's a little at odds with the board, with the higher ups. Like she, there's some tension there and she has other things she wants to be and do and ways that she thinks. And Milchik does not seem to have that independent side to him at all. He is just the company. He is just the company. is a pure, at this point, he's a pure avatar for the company kind of. persona and with cobell even you know we don't know if she has any or an outie we actually don't we know that her personality transfers through both worlds but we don't know if you know one is a sort of a version of the other like I'm still I'm really excited about this fucking show and I don't like them excited about it anyway but I will say In contrast to Cobell, Milchik is just so, as you said, steady and stern and unwavering. Cobell is so hyper emotional and hyper reactive. And it's almost as if she can't control her emotions in these moments, particularly in with... she puts on this overbearing act of being chilly and cold, but almost to the point where you're like, this is a little heavy, honey. Like you're protesting too much that you're like, I don't care. And it's like, but you have to act like that every time you speak. So it's like, you really care about everything. anyway, she really cares. You you know, the, the sort of opposition to the board is an interesting dynamic because One thing if you guys watch the show she has and I forget the character's name, but it's the HR person who speaks for the board So the board is never actually seen the guys we do not actually see the board or heard or heard right? Well, well, we do hear them once we hear them once in episode you hear a garble you hear a garble, right? It's not actually words. I hear this thing. That's almost like radio static like Radio static kind of situation But the board But everyone seems to be able to hear words when they hear that, right? So everyone in the world hears words when they hear it. It's sort of like Charlie Brown's teacher - Womp womp. It's decoded in transmission somehow that we don't get. But they have this female character who acts as sort of HR, and she delivers the heavy information. So there's this great scene, I'm not gonna give it too much away, where Cobell, who's our manager, suppose. She gets some news from the board that they are very unhappy with her. And it's this great scene where Cobell played by, what's her name again? Arquette. Patricia Arquette, just fantastic in this role. But you see her steely kind of facade and exterior kind of just. melt into this fear. And she does it with a just pure and abject fear. She does it with one single like look. And when they're delivering this news and it just it was so masterful because it's a tight shot on her face. And she has one of the most interesting faces on television or film ever. And it just yeah, she's fantastic. Anyway, if you haven't watched it, go watch it. Yes, yes. One other thing. So we see the map that Petey drew for Mark of the workspace. So a couple things that I wrote down here for the map, and I'm sure we're gonna find out a lot about these things as we go or how true this map is, how true it isn't, but a few things that Mark down. And even though I've seen the show before, like the fine details do elude me. I don't remember where exactly this goes. So. No, I PD has question marks by where optics and dev is. And that's the play. That's the department that Christopher Walken works in. So he's like, sure, but maybe then he has a place marked coil dot dot dot of doom question mark. And I was like, whoa. And it's right by the perpetuity ring. And then there is this room that has in all caps mind and then like a chip symbol. So like the mind chip. the thing that's inside their head probably. like a room that controls that maybe. And then some people, they these little like houses or townhouses off to the side drawn on the map and says, some people might live here. And I then wrote down Milchick and Cobell, is that where they're living? Like what, and what is that place we're not sure? And how is it off to the side? We're not sure. But the map is a curious little artifact when you look at it and read it. hints at a lot of things to come. I'm positive hints at a lot of things to come, even though I don't remember exactly how they come back into play. And then of course, one thing that this episode starts to really drive home is that apparently there is, because this is the episode where they do visit the perpetuity wing or did they visit the perpetuity wing in episode three? I'm already forgetting a little bit. Yeah, in perpetuity. That was episode three. So they've already, yeah, so they've been in the perpetuity wing. So One thing that's mentioned in this episode again is that Keir's original vision, I think it's Irv. Irv is usually played by John Turturro. He's usually the one that can quote all the, quote unquote, scripture. We're gonna call it that. Even though it's just like the handbook, I think is what they call it in the show. And he's like, Keir's original vision was all departments working together. But then there was some sort of bloody coup from the optics and design department, which is the one that Christopher Walken. the other departments distrust the optics and design department or so we think. Hold that in mind as we get to episodes five and six here. And then he also mentions that that was from the Cure first edition. So they mentioned there was a first edition, which means it's changed over time, right? Like they keep adapting the handbook. So is any of this what Cure actually meant to do anymore? Or like most religions, hasn't been adapted by the church, the organization to become whatever the fuck they want it to become, to do whatever they want to do. And this book is not what that original manuscript It's adopted for another original intent. Right, exactly. And the other thing, and this is something, this is one of my pet theories about something that's going on here. But they mention Keir has a quote, 10 centuries demise I speak on. Right. And we saw in the perpetuity wing all the many, many Eagans, because it's Kira Egan, and that's the family line. And there's all these Eagans that have come and gone and da da da. There is a part of me that's starting to wonder if all of this isn't a little bit of a get out scenario in terms of the Eagans living on in other bodies and that maybe they are still around. and they're not they have not all like you know the reason they haven't perpetuate in perpetuity the perpetuity wing where they show how they're all long gone and all these old eagles are no longer with us anymore is almost trying to hammer home that no no no they're not with us anymore and i'm like are they not the And maybe something about the severance is a piece of how you can divide a brain from the... you go. That's one of my theories as well. That's one of my theories. Okay. Okay. And I'm not going to say any more about that. Like if you haven't watched Get Out and you're not sure what we're talking about, for fuck's sake, go watch that. come back to this. Right. Then you'll know what we're talking about. But I'm not going to ruin Get Out for you too. You got to go. You got to go watch that on your own. Episode five. The Grim Barbarity of Optics and Design. Great, great title. Just great, great title. It's also, so one thing you guys will notice if you're watching this show is that the, there's, this is funny to me because having gone in a number of corporate headquarters in the past few years, haven't visited, they do this thing, lots of corporations, the multi-billion dollar corporations, They collect art and it's on display in their corporate offices many times. And they spend a great deal of effort, a great deal of money acquiring really good and interesting art. And a recurring kind of theme in this throughout the office space is the art that's on the walls. Now, Christopher Walken's character is sort of responsible for maintaining some of the art. And Irving, is John Turturro's character, is of course fascinated with the art. He knows everything about it. So what you end up having is this sort of really interesting kind of adhesive between these two characters. That's all I'll say about that. But the art is kind of epic, kind of... Renaissance in a way. It's the sort of big battle scene sometimes you see on the walls as they're walking by. And it is beautiful. mean, some of it is just actually, I know it's just made for production, but it's just beautiful. it stands in stark opposition to how austere the actual walls and setting of the office. is or are. So because they're very colorful. Exactly. Is always very drenched in color. Saturation. Absolutely. Saturation. Some of it very peaceful, some of it not. So one thing we learn here, so the grim barbarity of optics and design is the name of one of the pieces that we discover in the show. And, and that is a picture depicting the coup that optics and design, the bloody coup that optics and design did. Now we also, the trick is, and here's a spoiler, so again, go watch these episodes. I'm gonna save this the last time I'm saying there are spoilers here. So the spoiler, we then find out there is another version of this exact same picture where Mark and our main characters department, the macro data refinement has their own bloody coup that apparently happened in the past. now Optics and Design don't trust them because they've been told they were the ones. that rose up and were violent and can't be trusted. So this is plainly, obviously, a trick where every department has been given a mythology that gives them a reason not to interact or to even be curious about the other departments. You don't want to go find them. You don't want to go talk to them. They could be violent. There could be something going on there. And of course, because these people are blank slates in terms of memory, they buy into these things much more readily. because they're kind of, and that's something that you have to squint a little bit mentally to buy into the concept because of course they don't have memories of themselves but part of the shtick of all of this, they're not newborns, right? It's like they have all their understanding of the world still in them. So they shouldn't really be quite that naive. I feel like they kind of get away with them being a little bit more naive than you expect, but. One other thing to note about this. So starting in this episode also, Mark's sister, because we mentioned his brother -in-law, who is of course married to his sister. So his sister is the one family character of his that we get to meet in the outside world, outside of the office. And she's pregnant. She's about to give birth. So she goes to this birthing center, which has some strange stuff going on in it as well. But there. He meets her nursemaid. Now we saw in one of the earlier episodes that he went on a date with the nursemaid. And we mentioned in the previous episode that he even had, the date did not go well. He even got really defensive and went out of his way to sort of verbally attack these people passing out anti -Lumen flyers, anti -severance flyers, right? And so, no one else is this defensive about Lumen. They might not care, but they're also like, why are you yelling at them? That's a little much. But he meets up with the nursemaid again and while here because she is, this is true, that's how they met. That's how the date got set up in the first place. now one thing, because of everything that went on with Petey and him meeting Petey in the outside world and strange things going on, then Petey's passing in episode three, Mark has, he's started to become more open to questioning Lumen and the severance procedure because a lot has suddenly. He can't ignore it anymore, right? Unlike the Innie, which was just like this world he'd never had to think about. Literally, he couldn't think about it in a certain way. He had no knowledge of it. Now he's been thinking about it. And one thing that's really interesting between the Innie and the Audi, and we really only see this predominantly from Mark's perspective, because he's the only one we follow in the outside world for any amount of time, really, any significant amount of time. But the more his Audi, becomes open to questioning Lumen in the severance procedure, the more his any starts to do the same. And I found that really interesting and curious where it took the Audi no longer fervently trying to deny there's anything wrong with the severance procedure and fervently trying to deny that they had to consider anything about it. before because then Mark was also like that weirdly naive character where he's just like, no, you just do everything the company want. That's how you get along. Okay, well, we're just going to do everything by the hand. Yes. And nothing like he cared about the people and he would question things a little bit, but very little compared to compared to what was going on. You're like, Jesus, stand up for yourself. And now as his Audi is starting to do that the any and they have no memory. there's no scene. There's supposedly no going back and forth in the brain between these two severed halves. but they are affecting each other seeming, it really does seem. Yeah, that made me think that at some point there is, it's either an ingrained sort of regression in the severance somehow, because do we bring up the character who handles Peaty's severing? no, she hasn't. She hasn't even been mentioned by, I think this is the episode she's that her name is right. She's dropped at the end. That's right. Okay. And she shows up in episode six. So that's right. That's right. All We'll save that. Anyway. yeah. So, yeah, but I was going to say by this and by interacting with each other, cause then they start to open up more, right? And they start to have more by interacting with the department, start interacting with each other and all these characters that actually do the interacting start to become fuller human beings by doing so. So it's starting like the severance procedure is not delivering the results they want because so you can see why they kept them separate is like even though they're severed and they're like these weirdly naive just do what the company asks versions of their Audi selves. they're now becoming their own personalities, their own characters by that evolution of interacting with each other and that socialization. You know what I find most interesting about that is, is, you know, like you said, they, these characters enter this world and while they aren't children, they aren't, you know, infants, They are infants in this world. So they are crawling around and doing their best to kind of make sense of this world. And you find that these sort of disparate puzzle pieces, once you, allow them into the same box. just mixed a metaphor. I'll get back. Don't worry. You know, you know how I do it. We were talking about this right before we started recording. The trips always gets there. It's always on time. Talking about our bad habits that we both have to fix respectively that we've noticed by listening to these episodes once they're done. But we're like, God, we're so bad at blank. But what happens is you know, when these sort of disparate kind of puzzle pieces get together in the same proverbial box in the same space, they start making sense of each other's parameters of each other's sort of form and figuring out what's, you know, what's common, what's disparate again. And they start to make sense of, you know, one, who they are within the confines of this world, which does to a certain degree illustrate or at least give some sort of hints to who they might be outside. I'm really curious to see whether this is mirrored on the outside, whether these characters, when these characters interact on the outside, when the outies interact on the outside, because I definitely think that's where it's going. Some of the characters are going to interact on the outside in much more sort of important ways. Yeah, this part just makes me excited to see the dust up. I'm excited about the chaos of where this is fucking going. Anyway, yes. A few more notes that I wrote down on this episode. One, man, Helly's an asshole, both Innie and Audi. All right. You leave Helly alone. You guys are giving Helly a hard time. You know, it is interesting that when we see like the messages her Audi leaves for herself, but then the way Helly responds to all the people around her as well, I'm like, there is a good like The personality does not the alarming. is there, exactly. It's there. It's like when you're a hard ass and you're like, you know, you're much more concerned with how you're feeling and what you want versus, you know, you're not even really giving like this. Her any starts to in this episode and into episode six, episode six, especially she starts to soften a little bit because she realizes the other people are willing like they're doing their best. They actually do give a shit and they're trying. You know, they're in hell too. Not the lumens. also realizes that they're in hell as well. Right. But it took it takes her longer to realize this, I think, than the other people down there. Like there is an element of her personality. You get a hint of what her Audi is like because of this element of her personality that is like, yeah, I don't give a shit about you. I don't care what you think or want or say. Like, fuck you. I'm just doing what I want. And then you're sort of like, damn, like, try to be like. the situation's intense for everybody, hon. Like, come on now, try. But yeah, she's a bit, you can tell her out is a total asshole because you're just like, this is the naive newborn version of this, you know, kind of a thing. And it's like, it is pretty asshole -y. then, so then I also wanted to mention the quote. at the birthing center, Mark's sister does run into this lady. She goes out for a coffee run and she kind of knocks on this door as she sees this one lady with coffee. that's also at the birthing center. She's in a much grander, bigger unit. She's very wealthy. She's plain and coming. And she talks to her and this lady, there's something about this lady that's a little weirdly vacant and checked out of the whole situation where she's kind of like half there, but also half not. And again, you start to wonder if it's not part of like something adjacent to the severance procedure here where... She's like, she's sort of like under like everything that's happening in this strange lady who came in to not ask for coffee. She's like, coffee, you, huh? What do I think about that? And you're sort of like, this isn't that weird of a situation, but she's treating it like it's but then she's not she's also while she seems unsure what to do, she doesn't seem afraid. There's no fear. There's no anger or nothing. Right. She just seems confused as to like, I don't make decisions. Why? Like, so how do I make a decision here? And at one point, she the sister is asking like, like, is that your first and the lady says my third. And she's like, Whoa, how do you like I'm terrified of this one? Like, how do you do it? And there's a quote, she says, just she says, a lot of help, I guess. And I'm like, Okay, rich people. Am I right? Like a lot of help. But we're going to see if that doesn't play some into something and we are going to learn a little bit more about this later. Six that we're about to jump into. And the only other note I have for episode five is at one point someone says run a 266 on Irving B, which is John Turturro's character. And I'm like, God, they have numbers for like they're like what you do. So it's again, it's like this has been going on for a while. Like there is something and there is a purpose to all of this that is. We don't know what that is. It's driving somewhere. There's inertia. There's momentum, but they're also doing a great job of hiding Easter eggs and sort of retarding the flow of information, which is really satisfying when you compare it to a lot of the content, a lot of the stuff that's being produced these days because they want you to just, you know, take it in all at once, one sitting. And this is a show, it's impossible for me to binge. It was impossible for me to binge the show because it required some, concentration, but some sort of rumination to make sense of the sparseness of this world. And I think that's the masterstroke in this is that there's this sparseness in... not only in the character arcs, in the character motivations, in the mythos, in the lore, in the actual design of the production. And so it does kind of require you to kind of ruminate on the sort of different elements of the show, which is just so. You know, it's interesting. You say the Sparses. I was just about to say something that was polar opposite of that. but I think I think we're not saying. It's not actually the polar opposite, but I was going to say the world building in this is big is more than you think. yes, absolutely. Where and so there's a sparseness in what's on screen at any given time. And like every place you go, the number of characters you see is very controlled. It's almost like a weirdly depopulated world in certain ways. It's a controlled chaos. That's what I mean by the sparseness. So they're not necessarily taking, you know, I'm not going to. know about controlled chaos. is too strong of a word. no, this is controlled chaos. This is controlled chaos. Absolutely. Controlled chaos. This is just controlled. I see zero chaos in this. How could it not be chaos? Okay, let me ask you this. What do you think the motivations are behind Cobell's emotion? Behind her freaking out? Behind Helly's interest in and deep desire to kind of escape this world behind Mark's sort of confusion. Behind all the characters, there is a chaos. That's what I'm saying. There's an underlying chaos. And it comes, it's motivated by different things for each character, but there's an underlying chaos that within the confines of this world, which is so metered, they're having to control it. They're having to control the chaos the moment they step into this office. They're having to control the chaos that's going on in their minds and their emotions at every turn. we kind of see with Heli when she's initially dropped into the world, she isn't accustomed to having to control that chaos, for lack of a better phrase. And so that kind of chaos just comes out at every turn. That's why she was trying the sort of the parameters and the barriers and trying to sort of escape and trying to dig into and express the chaos of even if it's sort of a mortal or existential chaos at that point. that's what I mean by sort of controlled chaos. I mean more of the motivation behind the characters. get that, but I don't think chaos is the right word because chaos is a lot. Chaos is huge. Chaos is everything. it's yeah, but no. Yeah. See, I can't agree with that. Even a little bit. The chaos of the characters who, let's say, Hallie, for instance. I get it. I just don't agree. She's dropped into this world where she knows nothing. of the physics of this world, the motivation of this world, of its people, anything. That's not chaos. That's absolutely chaos. That's chaos. The chaos is driving her. The chaos within her emotions, within her intellect is driving her to try and escape and flee, even to the point of death. That's chaos. Sure, but that is a singular drive. That's not chaos. That's emotional chaos. That is absolutely emotional. No, it's an emotion. There's emotion and there's a stop. There's a motion. That is emotional chaos. No, it is not. Emotional chaos is far more chaotic. What is emotional chaos? That is linear and singular and it is powerful. It's not singular. She's not feeling one single emotion in that time. That is not a singular emotion. for the most part. No, she's not seeking one single emotion. as much as anyone can. Yes. You're not dropping to a world where you know nothing. You're forced to stay there. The rules of physics don't apply. that is not a singular case. That's not a secret case. The rules of physics do apply. The rules of physics don't apply. How? She killed herself. Oops. Did we cover that yet? No. But, and she didn't, technically. Right. She tried. Right. But my point is... She tried in one of earlier episodes when she tried to, no, no, no, she didn't cut her wrist. She drew messages on her When she was in the bathroom, I thought that's what she was doing. I did too, actually. I think I did that on purpose. yeah. And then she wrote the message on her arm, because it was in red. And so I was like, those are all cuts on her arm. What's the best part? At the end of this? The best part about that, hold on, hold on, let me go back to that point. The best part about that scene was. when they did it, it was in red, I physically sat up. I was like, is she cutting her wrist? It was such a stimulating moment. Anyway, go. Okay. So at the end of this episode, and it's beautifully, I believe it's this episode that she winds up hanging herself at the very end, or maybe it's the end of episode five. And then this is the one where they rest on her at beginning of episode six. So, we failed to mention that, but that's kind of the cliffhanger of episode five is that Halle, and again, so, Again, this is all directed by E .F. McCardell. And one thing I didn't want to mention about E McCardell versus Ben Stiller's direction that I think, I think this shines through in these three particular episodes. E .F. McCardell seems to be much more of a thriller style director. Like she's got this ability. Like things are much darker in these episodes in this noir -ish thriller, born identity almost kind of way. The scenes in the outside world are suddenly like, drenched in shadow, not just darkness, shadow and silhouettes. And you get this noir -ish thriller feel that was a little bit present in episodes one through three, but she takes it to the next level. then maybe, to your point, it may have been just where it fits in the narrative of the story, but either way, you come away. I still think she's... I come away with, first of all, wanting to see her direct a thriller, a film. Like I want to see her thriller. I need to see it. Like, because what she manages to do in these, what, 50 minute episodes, we got five, was it four, five, but three of them back to back, but three of them back to back. So she has micro arts for sure. So she has the opportunity to kind of direct. And maybe that's why I going to say this is this is like her two hour thriller together. Right. You so she gets the chance to kind of play with these characters in these arcs and this momentum and this inertia for three hours almost. And what she does, to your point, is so it's it's masterful like the the you know you mentioned the shadows this sort of you know she does this weird thing in episode what was it episode with the map there's a moment when they have them they're trying to recreate the map i think yeah they're trying to recreate the map And It's also really delicate. everything about it is really delicate. You mentioned the sort of born identity kind of nature of her arc here. And even with that kind of kinetic energy, it's still really delicate. I'm feeling more for the characters in this arc now, even as she kind of lays bare a lot of their kind of bullshit, for lack of better term. Anyway. And I also wanted to mention, you we mentioned how it was all women writers on these, so we should actually mention who they are, because that would be a disservice otherwise. So Carrie Drake, K -A -R -I, Drake, wrote episode four. She has also written on, let's see, the TV shows, The Lottery, Defiance, Limitless, Insatiable, The Dark Crystal, Age of Resistance, Lost in Space, then Severance, and now she has also written for Tales of the Walking Dead. On top of that and then episode 5 the one we're on right now Amanda Overton wrote it and she has also written for Let's see as a Writer. no, she's been a script supervisor. I think Anna O 'Young Mensch wrote five, Is she the one who I thought she wrote six. no, you're right Anna Okay, you're right. Amanda Overton wrote six. Okay, so Anna O 'Young Mensch wrote five and she's actually the only one who comes back for season two of these three writers. Okay, she's written plays apparently. So Anna O -Yang Mensch is an award -winning playwright and screenwriter. Her plays have been produced at Williamstown Theatre Festival, NAATCO slash the Public Theater, the Geffen Playhouse and Playwrights Realm, East West Players, Interact Theater, Theater Moo, and many other theaters across the country and the world. So this is where she's coming from and why as a screenwriter she's new. Or at least as far as like shit that got mad. Who knows? Who knows as far as something where she got an IMDB credit right there and it's And not IMDB Pro just IMDB She could be a working writer for 20 years and this is just her first exactly be credit And it does say she is a supervising producer on severance and a co-executive producer on the white darkness both on Apple TV plus Anna was a member of the pilot cohort And I was a member of the pilot cohort of the Warner Media Access showrunner. So that seems to maybe how she her little entryway into that. But but it's so she wrote episode five. And then we're going to get to Amanda Overton, who wrote episode six. And Amanda Overton has been a script coordinator. And then as a writer, she has written for it looks like Edge of Normal TV series, True Blood, Jessica's blog, Arcane, the animated show. and Monarch, the Godzilla show, Legacy of Monsters. Yeah. All right. So now, first off, you're not getting the last word on that. did not get to state my case about the controlled chaos. So I do want to go back. We don't have to argue this, but just to state my side of this a little bit more clearly, controlled chaos is a phrase often used to to describe something that looks out of control, but which functions according to unseen rules or organization. And that's the point. Speed Racer is controlled chaos. The movie. That is what the meaning of controlled chaos is. It is complete visual chaoticness or even the way it's executed. It's it's shit's happening left and right and flying at you. And you're like, you can't even tell what like you would need to. go slow and break down how it's even doing what it's doing, because so much is flying all over the place. And yet it functions as a piece because the filmmakers were, that was our whole point of it when we talked about it on that episode, our debut episode, folks, go check it out. One -and movies, Speed Racer 2008, the Wachowskis. But the Wachowskis when they made that movie were making a controlled chaos movie. It was a very tightly wound, perfectly, put together, but in a way that looks and seems and feels like chaos. That's the meaning of controlled chaos. Now, even if even taking that meaning and trying to give it a different meaning, which is fine, that's always, know, human beings are allowed to do to to translate that in another way or give it a new spin. But I just think chaos is a word where even yes, the emotions are there. They're burgeoning within these characters, they're bubbling under the surface. But chaos requires there to be like, I don't, I cannot see this as like they're feeling every emotion under the sun at the same time. And it's like, no, they're not. Dave, I get, I understand. I know the definition of controlled chaos. And what I'm saying is the way this world is presented, it is chaotic. Nope. It is absolutely chaotic. to the viewer. Not even a little bit. It's chaotic. It's chaotic. Dallas. You're having to Dallas. Everything about the way You're make sense way, the way, the way, the way. No, no, You're to make sense of all the disparate elements and narratives and points that are going on simultaneously, not only inside but outside, not only the processes that are happening in the office, but the processes that are happening within each individual. I'm not saying Over the course of hours. I'm not saying that There's nothing chaotic about Of course it's chaotic. Of it's chaotic. It's chaotic. Dallas, the presentation of this world is so perfectly dominoes falling at the pace the writers want them to fall. slowly, gradually, there's zero things chaotic about the presentation of this world. no, it's chaos. Zero. It's chaos. It's chaos. Yeah, okay. It's chaos. The way this world is presented is... Very careful. The thing I was going to say that was the opposite of what you said earlier is that the world building is more in depth and significant than you think because those early episodes, you're very focused on just the office and the home life of generally only of Mark too. Then you meet like his sister and his brother -in -law and that's really it. That's like, that is the world of this world. And then you only slowly pull out like we're about to discuss episode six, hide and seek. written by Amanda Overton, now we're there. And episode six, you start to, then we start to see that the lady that his sisters met at the birthing center is the wife of a senator. And that the senator has a background in pushing severance as a legal procedure and helping it get legalized. Wait, wait, wait. Was this senator the same senator from, they mentioned in episode one? I'm just making this connection, hold on. Sorry, sorry, keep talking, keep talking. I'm looking at stuff. So the senator and then the sister starts looking up news articles and the news articles start to break down that he was one of the primary defenders of severance and one of the big mouthpieces to get it legalized. probably this wife of his, whoever she is and how she's being, she's even on record too, saying, so I wrote down, One thing that's really interesting is that the sister meets up with the wife of the senator outside the birthing center again, Well, sort of outdoor at the birthing center grounds, but outdoors with the senator. Now she that's who that's how she looks up at the park, right? Sees who the guy is. And he's a little weird because he's like, you met my wife. Okay, we gotta go now. And she's like, that was weird. But then the wife also acts like she has no idea who the sister is. And she looks at her and then when the sister's like, we met in there. And then the wife's like, okay. And it's like that thing where it's like, you do not remember who this person is, but they swear you met like three years ago or something like that at this film festival somewhere. And you're like, okay, yeah. And you're like, Jesus, I know you don't remember me. So was so blatant she didn't remember her, but it was last night. So this is again that like weird. wonder if there's a severance in the wife. It's like whoever was there last night was a one half of the brain and then the person there during the day with and here's the thing with or without the senator, right? When the senator isn't present, she's someone else. And when the president senator is present, she's another part of her brain. Something like that is going on here plainly. And So yeah, go ahead. Sorry, I just found it and I lost it again. God damn it. Go on. So another thing. So when she's looking up the newspaper articles, so the wife is even like on quoted in the article as saying something about the severance and loom in and like how. no, no, no. She's just on. It's like this weird homemaker thing where she's like, yeah, all the renovations are how our big mansion about. And like it's such a non a useless throwaway quote that you're just like, You know, she's Susie Ho maker and seemingly nothing like her whole personality. Yeah. But Senator is from the hometown of Keir. The hometown is named Keir. Right. So and then at one point I also have written down as a note on this episode, illumination beyond all is apparently an Egan philosophy. Don't forget, Lumen is a play on the word of luminosity, which is all about illumination and light and yada yada. So Illumination, which is again, that weird thing where we like that the first edition of the handbook and how this entire version of what Egan and Lumen was all about seems to have been twisted over time and as it's gone on and maybe it's not really about what it was originally about, we'll see. And then the thing I wanted to mention about Kobel is this is the episode where we see her shrine, Tikir. And we see in that shrine. It's a literal shrine. that she worships at and she prays to Kier. She literally prays to him. And we see a picture of her as like a Girl Scout style believer in Kier at a school, an institute where she was schooled at, which was a Kier -Lumen Institute. a pipeline, a pipeline essentially. So she is literally a brainwashed true believer, Mormon slash Scientologist, whatever you want to call it. Like she is that. kind of person, is why I think one, is why, and probably Milchek is as well, which is why these people are almost sycophantic and weirdly brainwashed, like, you brainwashed in their own way, not like severed people, but brainwashed in this way of just like, we are good soldiers, good Christian soldiers and marching to the beat, doing what we need to do. But Cobell is interesting because she's such a true believer and she worships Kier so much. On the one hand, think she really wants to be like, she wants to be a chosen one. Of course. She wants to the one to change everything. So she's opposed and she is somewhat dismissive of the board who is actually the board because she doesn't like them because they're above her and she does not believe they should be above her. So she has her own. She's a true believer, but unlike Milchek, who is a true believer in the system, think as well, Cobell is not. a true believer in the system. She's a true believer in her own dedication to here as a godlike figure. Right. so here so here here's an interesting point because I sort of have the same thought process. It made me using that Scientology sort of parallel right or any sort of religiosity right. You have the true sort of devotees who have bought into you know the the the sort of deity for lack of a better term. And that was the most interesting part about that episode for me was that question was still unanswered for me because I don't know for sure whether or not she is truly anti-bored because she hates the idea of this being an institution that's corporate somehow and she wants to get back to some sort of rudimentary connection to Kier. I don't know. One other thing. In this episode we get, so there's a character called Dylan, which is the most lovable character, I think, in the core. Kind of. Again, lovable is a stretch of the word. in context to these things, he's the most, you know, it's the most, okay, let me pinch your cheeks kind of character, but. We have a moment. lot of times you want to slap. Leave that guy alone. But what ends up happening, how much can I say without giving this away? There's a scenario where Milchek has to engage with Dylan's Audi. Audi. And he does in the outside world. he does in the outside world. And it's the first time that... Dylan or any of these characters. Yes. And we see that they can turn the innie on in the outside world. do not have to be in the workplace. That's the most important bit of information from this scenario, for sure. Yes. Milchek shows up at Dylan's, Dylan's is Audi's house. And then like does something like says something and boom. The severance is broken. innie of Dylan. Well, no, the severance turns on in a way. It's not broken. right, right. It switches from one side to the other, right? Right, right, right. And he's like, now you're the any version, even though you're on the outside world, we can do, we have a control way of flipping you between your two selves anytime we want, which I'm pretty sure no one is of. is why it's such an interesting plot point. Although, no, I shouldn't say that because actually Dylan, at the end of that scene, They turn the Audi back on and Dylan looks right at Milchek and says, are we done here? And he's like, yeah, so Dylan knows he switched to the Innie, talked to the Innie and then came back. they do know or Mark doesn't know this though, I'm pretty sure. Not through first hand experience. We'll find out. He understands PD's situation, not first hand. Anyway. Things we're going to look at in the final three episodes are already running over time. let's get to the wine pairings. Dallas, have you changed your wine pairing for episodes four through six? having no actually no I haven't I I did but I didn't and I'll tell you why. So I'm sticking with the first one for episodes four and five but for the sixth episode I did decide to curate a separate glass I needed something with a so guess technically I there is an upgrade in or an evolution in the pairing. I needed something with a... Something a bit sandier, if that makes sense. I needed something that had a bit more bite that made me a little confused, but also satisfied. So I knew I wanted to go with something sort of Sicilian, which those guys, stand up, they're very old grapes. And I went with a pure pericone. And it is the No Tricks Paracone 2021. It has a great bite. It's a little, it's very, very, very vibrant. It doesn't need anything else. And I think these three episodes, these three episodes in this arc, particularly episode six, is the best episode so far, without question. I don't know if that's just attributed to the kind of inertia of the first act, those first three episodes and the story kind of opening up or if it's attributed to Ify's sort of masterstroke here with controlling the chaos. Yeah, I said it. But yeah, I went with for the first two episodes of this second series, I went with what I chose before. And for episode three, I went with the No Tricks Paracone, Terra Siciliana 2021. Price point, I got this guy for I think 30, 29 or 30, but you can pick it up a little cheaper. The hand, the grapes are sort of, I'm gonna fumble all of this, so luckily we edited. Dave can edit all this out and make it sound. I already got to edit out our whole controlled chaos debate. That went on way too long. my Lord, folks, you have no idea. It went on so long. I cut out a lot of it for you. Trust me, no one wants an uncut version of this episode. I don't want an uncut version of this episode. went on so long. But I made sure both of our primary arguments were here in this episode. But hey. comment on our subs tech or email us in at wine the letter N pod at gmail .com. Let us know what you think is this controlled chaos? Am I right? And it's not and that's not the definition. Or is Dallas using poetic license the way he should and it absolutely is? Let us know. Anyway, it is a medium bodied red lively ruby color violet sometimes you get Curious thing about this, it does have a, not a weird, an odd geranium kind of note that is pretty prominent. You got all the herbs, there's some anise, some ginger. It's really interesting, really dynamic. And it's sandy in texture in terms of the tannins. Yeah, I really enjoy it. It's an acquired. taste I think for people who are not fans of the pericone grape and that variety. yeah. So many people know if they are or not. That's a problem. Probably no one knows. very few. If you don't, go try it and tell Am I a fan of the pericone grape? If you don't know, go try and tell us. Definitely try. Try all these grapes guys because You can surprise yourself, Absolutely. And there's so much variety out there these days. Be brave. If it's a grape you've never heard of before, amazing. That is exactly the thing you should go out there and try. And let us know. Now, yes. Now, speaking of grapes you have heard of, likely, or at least most of you, though, if you're a non -wine drinker, if you truly are brand new to wine, maybe not, maybe not. Dallas is actually great. dropped the last episode that we talked about episodes one through three. And that is Cabernet Franc. yeah. And so I took your advice and I decided now I you don't have to change. I still stand by my retina from the previous episode, which is that Greek white wine with pine resin added. It's like an alien made wine. It keeps you off kilter. It's not unpleasant, but it also isn't. I'm not sure I can say it's pleasant either. It's somewhere in between. And I'm sure you can develop the palette for it. That was my first bottle of Ritzina ever. So there might come a time if I kept drinking it, if I keep going back and buying bottles, and I definitely will somewhere in the future, like maybe it doesn't, maybe it's not even that off putting anymore. Like it's no longer the alien wine. But for now, if you haven't had Ritzina, if it's not a daily, it's a daily drinker in Greece. But if you're not from Greece, you know, it's like how you feel about Vegemite and things like that. If you didn't grow up with it. it's one of those things where you're like, yeah, I'm good. I'm good. I'm not, don't know about this, but you mentioned Cabernet Franc and I definitely think Cabernet Franc, especially from a cool climate. So I have a Cabernet Franc from the Finger Lakes from New York. so this is a, do do do do do do red newt cellars Cabernet Franc from Glacier Ridge Vineyard 2019. And this is a, you know, Finger Lakes, New York, very cool, relatively and cold. climate. So Cabernet Franc already is a little bit it's one of the parent grapes of Cabernet Sauvignon, but it's much lighter in color, body higher acidity, you get some astringency with it a lot of the times like a green bell pepper astringency that can sometimes come through. is one of my favorite notes out of the Cab Franc. I love it when it's... I prefer a Cab Franc over Cabernet Sauvignon most of the time. for that reason, it has these layers and this complexity that Cabernet Sauvignon tends to be a bit more streamlined. Cabernet Sauvignon you can make richer and then if you oak it and if it's in the right climate, you're giving it the right aging techniques. Like it really can also be an amazing experience, but Cabernet Franc, you can drink it younger and it's just, already so much more interesting most of the time. Yeah. So this from the Finger Lakes and from the Glacier Ridge, has this sort of, even the winery says the Glacier Ridge Cabernet Francs have this earthy smokey quality that is really interesting and really pleasant and that gives it yet another dimension, especially with these noir thriller episodes coming into there. I like that earthy smokey quality I thought added like a really nice match for those. And then it's like cooler climate Cab Franc, you're not gonna get ripe fruit from cooler climate red wines. You're going to get under ripe fruit. And so you get instead of like strawberries, you get this like strawberries that are still a little crunchy. You know what I mean? Like it's still it's still it's not that fruit forward. It's got a little bit of fruitiness, but it's like this under ripe fruitiness with this bit of bitterness and smoky earthiness and that astringency. So altogether, though, and again, it's well made, the acidity is high. So it's got that nice little like citric acidity that's a part of it. It is. just and even at 2019 like you this is made to be drunk young. So I think I think the acidity will allow to age really really well, but you can drink it right now. It was it had the right kind of bittersweet under ripe fruit this earthy smokiness and astringency all together match the flavor of these episodes. You can even do this one for the first few if you're like no Ritzina for me. I'm just going to move on to something more pleasant. This is the more pleasant version where it'll still challenge you a little bit if you're new to wine. And if you're not, if you like that type of subtlety and nuance, like, yeah, this is the one for you. I've been definitely the one for me. Cool. Yeah, I totally see that. right, Beautiful guys. This has been another three episodes of Severance. We will be back in one week for the final three episodes, seven through nine. Where we see how this all wraps up and then we'll be prepped and ready to go for whenever season two drops So once again, this has been another wine and we will be back next week for another wine and entertainment pairing for your entertainment See you then and bye bye guys you