Wine and...Movies: THE TOXIC AVENGER (1984) with Fred Harper

The artist on the brand new Toxic Avenger comic talks the OG Troma movie that started it all! And what do you drink with toxic?

Fred Harper has a background in fine art, caricature art, editorial art, mural art, and more, but he always comes back to comics, baby. The new Toxic Avenger is written by fellow artist Matt Bors and the two are putting together something seriously special.

PREORDER THE COMIC:
Preorder Code: AUG241325
USA East Coast (Mid-Town Comics)
USA West Coast (Golden Apple Comics)

Follow Fred Online!
Substack
Website
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THE WINES (and Tequila!)

Fred's Tequila
Casamigos Reposado Tequila
The George Clooney tequila brand's dark tequila, Fred says it's smooth and needs no chaser!

Dallas' Wine
Gérard Bertrand Trouble XP Blanc “Cloudy Wine”
You just knew one of us had to got he “natty” route when pairing with Toxic Avenger! Note that “Trouble XP Cloudy Wine” comes in white, rose, and red, Dallas specifically paired the white/blanc.

Dave's Wine
Domaine Haut Bridau Picpoul de Pinet (for a balanced version)
TECH SHEET
Or...
Bonny Doon’s Picpoul from the Central Coast of California (for a real lip smacker of a sharpity share sharp wine! You'll feel CLEAN when you're done with this one!)

Chapters

• 0:17 Intro
• 5:14 Special Guest Fred Harper and The Toxic Avenger Comic Book
• 15:01 Our Respective Histories with the Movie
• 25:10 The 80's was the Apex of the Jock-as-Bully Trope
• 27:51 What are we Drinking with The Toxic Avenger?
• 42:08 The History of Troma Studios and this Movie
• 1:02:04 Final Thoughts
• 1:11:19 Wrap-Up!

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;26;09
Unknown
He's Dave and I'm Dallas. We have opinions on just about everything. Sometimes they're on point and sometimes they go down better with a glass of water. Join us. This is the Wine and... podcast. Welcome back, everybody to wine and the show where we pair wine with movies, TV, music, books, comics. And, you know, maybe one day we'll pair it with.

00;00;26;12 - 00;00;43;18
Unknown
I don't know. Different kinds of environmental disasters. Oil spill. What do you pair with the next oil spill like that? The next major wildfire? Yeah. Oh, well, too many more of those on the West Coast, and we'll have a lot less wine to choose from. But, hey, makes our jobs a little bit easier, so you know what? Go for it.

00;00;43;19 - 00;01;07;05
Unknown
Arsonists and cheap electric companies. Bring it on. Or how about the next train derailment that dumps toxic waste all over a small town? Well, we might just do that pairing if we ever covered the brand new Toxic Avenger comic coming out this October, which will be written by political cartoonist and writer Matt Bors, with art by a very special guest who is joining us today.

00;01;07;06 - 00;01;26;14
Unknown
We will introduce that chap in just a mo. But first, as always, if you like what you hear today, please make sure to hit that follow or subscribe button. It does help the podcast grow, reach new listeners, create a hive mind and if you love us then please leave a five star review. If you don't love us, send us an email and tell us why you don't love us.

00;01;26;16 - 00;01;52;14
Unknown
It's Dallas isn't always. It is Dallas. It is Dallas. So make sure you write in and tell him why he sucks. If you don't mind, do so by sending us an email to whine in the letter N, as in nope, not going there. Genius is polarizing. I'm sorry Dave, do that again. Do you? So by sending us an email to whine the letter n pod whine n pod@gmail.com.

00;01;52;19 - 00;02;16;29
Unknown
We are also on Substack. Substack subscribers are the first to know when new episodes drop, can interact with us, gain access to bonus pairings, articles, interactive polls, and more. We're working on it, but there will definitely be more. We've really got to up our game because you know what? Shout out to our very first paid subscriber who isn't a friend or family member, or even anyone we've ever interacted with online.

00;02;17;01 - 00;02;35;06
Unknown
So our first complete stranger paid subscriber, you know, I think with this event we can now retire the term stranger danger. Strangers are wonderful now, especially if they give you money. If strangers give you money, kids get in that van. It's all good. Do not listen to the advice given by Dave Baxter on this podcast.

00;02;35;08 - 00;03;00;02
Unknown
But shout out to our first complete stranger paid subscriber, Paul Kalemkiarian and apologies if I'm pronouncing your last name incorrectly there, Paul. Paul is. We did Google him because of course we did. Paul is the founder of the original wine of the Month Club, founded back in 1972. And Paul apparently has his own podcast called Wine Talks with Paul K.

00;03;00;06 - 00;03;20;27
Unknown
So, Paul, you plainly have impeccable taste in podcasts. So everyone check out wine talks with Paul K. And you know, we may have to not be complete strangers or much longer here. You know what I'm bugging him. We got a show, guys, if you like it 100%. We we got to clear some of our slate first, but we that's that's coming in the near future.

00;03;20;28 - 00;03;42;24
Unknown
I strongly will make that. And also, you know, a quick yes and quick retro shout out to Kate Reuschel because Kate also became a paid subscriber not too long ago, but she was a guest on the show. And so that was kind of her big. That's how we rolled her out and got to announce her. And folks, Kate Reuschel she is on Substack survivesonwine.substack.com.

00;03;42;29 - 00;04;04;12
Unknown
And check out her episodes where she guested on this show. Two part episode on the album, the Gotan Project. La Revancha del Tango, they are two of our most listened to episodes to this day, so definitely go check those out. And thank you so much for being a paid subscriber as well. Kate. Okay.

00;04;04;14 - 00;04;23;20
Unknown
Any who that's us. Wine and.substack.com. Go find us there. That's where you can actually support the show and become a paid subscriber. If you love what you hear and love what you read there. And since we know you're already doomscrolling as you listen to this, go ahead and find us on all the socials under our profile name, wine and the pod.

00;04;23;20 - 00;04;45;25
Unknown
We're on IG threads, Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, wine and the full and wine and pod. Yes, of course we wanted that for our Gmail as well. But guess what? Someone's sitting on it. Someone has it. Are they using it? Nooo. If you google wine, wine and pod at gmail.com, does anything come up? Nooo. So whoever you are out there sitting on that email, throw it back in the water.

00;04;45;25 - 00;05;03;21
Unknown
It's too small for you. You don't want it. You're not eating it. Let it live. Bring it back to us. But until that day, our email is wine. The letter N pod gmail.com and all our socials are the full wine and pod. And to wrap this up, know that most of the time we discuss some things that we love.

00;05;03;26 - 00;05;14;03
Unknown
Sometimes we'll dissect something that we hate. That day is coming, like the heat death of the universe. But whatever it is you love, whatever it is you hate, there is a wine that pairs with that.

00;05;15;10 - 00;05;36;02
Unknown
So today we have a very special guest with us, Fred Harper, artist extraordinaire. Fred is a painter, a muralist, a caricature, a comic book artist and editorial illustrator ist with a BFA in painting from Columbus College of Art and design.

00;05;36;09 - 00;06;00;19
Unknown
He has worked freelance for Marvel and DC, but an editorial illustrator for The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Sports Illustrated, and Playboy. He's been involved in numerous fine art projects, painted a 60ft long mural for the Manhattan Classic Car Club in one of their display garages, key art for Ozzfest, concept sketches for Mud Vine, Megadeth, Buckethead and some smaller projects.

00;06;00;19 - 00;06;28;27
Unknown
Only a select few would know about those select few not being us. But if you would like to check out Fred's work and be added to his client list, that can be arranged. Motherfucker. Just go check him out at Fred harper.com spelled exactly like it sounds. Fred harper.com or Fred is also on Substack Fred harper.substack.com. That's where actually I've been following him for a little while, and when I invited him to be on the show, I've been looking I've been ogling his art for about a year now.

00;06;28;29 - 00;07;00;04
Unknown
And he's also a quite a fine writer in his own right on his Substack. So go check that out, kind of see what he's up to. Trust me, you will fall in love with this art. So go check them out on Substack or just check out his website at the very least. Now, most recently. And the reason we're here today to talk about the 1984 OG Toxic Avenger movie, Fred is the artist on the brand new Toxic Avenger comic coming out from Ahoy Comics, in the first week of October.

00;07;00;10 - 00;07;20;15
Unknown
Written by Matt Bors, Fred is the artist and it is up for pre-sale as we speak. I will make sure that the order the pre-sale order code is down below in the description of this episode, as well as links. If you're on the West Coast, I will put a link to Golden Apple Comics to preorder it. They will ship, and if you're on the East Coast, I will put a link to Midtown Comics for you to preorder it.

00;07;20;15 - 00;07;38;05
Unknown
They will also ship and folks pre-ordering and comics is very important. You want it by the time it hits the shelf. A lot of decisions have already been made on how well it's doing, how well those preorders did, whether they're going to do more of this comic, whether they're going to get rid of the creative team because they're like, well, no one likes them.

00;07;38;11 - 00;07;59;11
Unknown
It doesn't it doesn't sell well or whatever it's going to be. If you want to support the creators and you want to support this comic preorder, that is very important. So check out those links. They will be down below. And okay, he's been waiting in the wings here ever so silently throughout. Welcome to wine. And and how are you doing this fine afternoon?

00;07;59;11 - 00;08;26;19
Unknown
Hey, how are you doing? I feel like I should be, I should have the welcome from, Hello, Vietnam. Just like, that's, like, the most. Well, I think the most effective, hello. That I've ever heard, for a radio or podcast or any, like, read and and then, I think it, I think of it every time I'm, a guest on any podcast.

00;08;26;21 - 00;08;49;16
Unknown
I'm like, I just want to start screaming, but I'm like, oh, yeah, they're going to just cut like, no stock, you know? And we just who do we let on our new, or shiny podcast and, but, no, I've been, I've been brushing up on your last couple of podcasts, and I found the haunted house, book that you, overnight and that was fascinating.

00;08;49;16 - 00;09;09;06
Unknown
And I was, I was like, oh, I got to. I love how you think about those things. And, so I feel, way outclassed as far as, like, you're going to be like, what do you think about, when you drew that for this comic book? And, and I'm going to be like, just like, no response.

00;09;09;06 - 00;09;27;21
Unknown
And we start, asking me, the hard questions. Yeah. You know, like, I, I because like, when you, when you do make art, a lot of times you just end up going, well, I'm just going to do this, you know, and when you do a comic book, you don't have to check with the staff. Yeah. You know, you just go, I'm drawing it.

00;09;27;21 - 00;09;48;21
Unknown
So boom, here you go. And then hopefully the editor likes it. And, if they don't like it, they just never hire you again. So. Well, you know, I, I will say, even though we're here to talk about the Toxic Avenger movie more in depth so we won't be picking apart, I haven't read your Toxic Avenger comic.

00;09;48;21 - 00;10;10;29
Unknown
Yeah, it's not out yet. Yes, I have preordered it though. Hint, hint. Oh, you listeners, I've already preordered it, so you got to get one. I've already preordered it. Oh, there it is. There we go. Oh, okay. This will be a short video for the social media. There we go. Perfect. And I have preordered it, but even just looking like you did art for the wrong Earth from, ahoy as well.

00;10;11;05 - 00;10;34;07
Unknown
And, I mean, I can see your background both in fine art and as a caricature artist, but you do this wonderful job where it's like you reign because, you know, when you do caricatures, it's like really distended or distorted reality, and you're really good at that. But then you can reel it in to where there's still this, like, what's the word I'm looking for?

00;10;34;07 - 00;11;07;26
Unknown
Potential dynamism. Like it's like, yeah, it's these figures in these faces and your compositions are wanting to explode into dysmorphia, into these sort of distracting positions. But. Yeah, but they're but they're held in. But then they have these, this sort of like energy to them in your compositions. It's the most often see it's. Yeah, it's the motion you're able to do this thing which is pretty rare, is you're able to kind of, in the frame, broadcast the energy of the panel while also creating some sort of restraint.

00;11;07;28 - 00;11;32;11
Unknown
And there's this weird, like, emotional kind of, I don't know, parameter that you put on the viewer. That's really I mean, it's it's kind of consistent through a lot of your work. It's it feels like the play between restraint and explosion, for lack of a better term. So, yeah, I think I'm going to have a new attitude when I go make more art, you know, like, like I have to keep that in mind, like, wow, I was doing something that, you know.

00;11;32;16 - 00;11;53;19
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. Because, like, you know, a lot of times you're unconscious about what you're making, you know, of when you're making. But I think that's a testament to the artist's signature, because, you know, that intuition, you know, you kind of trained that subconsciously based on the things you've, you know, digested, ingested, and, you know, the things you're trying to work out about yourself.

00;11;53;19 - 00;12;15;14
Unknown
So it becomes your sort of unique identifying kind of signature. And it's fantastic. So don't change and try not to, change is inevitable. I guess. You just inevitable. And you always want to be pushing yourself and trying new things and all that fun stuff. You don't. You never want to get bored with what you do, so you always gotta keep that you want to latch on to.

00;12;15;17 - 00;12;34;08
Unknown
Yeah, yes, I gotta, I gotta keep, I gotta hold on to that. But thank you very much. That's very nice of you to observe. You know, because I never I work in a cave, and I know, like, you know, as an artist, I'm just never. I don't go out, enough. Like where I'm getting a critique of, like.

00;12;34;08 - 00;12;58;04
Unknown
Well, do you think of this artwork? You know, I mean, yeah. My girlfriend. Oh, she's an artist, but she'll write. She'll like, give me a like. Oh, no, you. The eye is wonky there, you know, just technical things. And, and then, you know, you get that kind of feedback, but then to hear it from somebody that doesn't know where you, what happened to you yesterday, you know, and go, that's interesting.

00;12;58;04 - 00;13;26;21
Unknown
And, you know, like, it gives you it makes me more aware of what I've done. You know, actually, that brings up an interesting point. When did you when would you say you started your professional artist career? Like, what gear would you put on that? What? Let's see, I think I was, I was 16 when I first got my first, like, big to me, big paying job.

00;13;26;21 - 00;13;42;18
Unknown
I got $50 to paint a deer head for a butcher. You know. Oh. That's good. Yeah, that's a that's a good character origin story, actually. Yeah. Yeah. It's like. Yeah. What do you got? Yeah. We chopped that head off, you know,

00;13;42;18 - 00;13;49;25
Unknown
but yeah, it was, it was kind of, they gave me paint, they gave me a board and they go, yeah, we want this big on a thing.

00;13;49;27 - 00;14;16;11
Unknown
And and I was like 16. I'd never touched paint in my life. I'm like, I don't know how to do this. You know? I just, I knew I knew how to copy a picture, but, you know, so I just, I did it in pencil and then I put the colors down and it I don't know, I haven't it lasted a long time, you know, they gave me some good paint, but, I really didn't know what I was doing, but I'm like, wow, I got paid for this.

00;14;16;11 - 00;14;36;11
Unknown
So it wasn't the kind of thing that was in town that you would walk past through the years, you know? And. Yeah, yeah, I was down the street from, like my parents owned a little dive bar, you know, local, like, you know, neighborhood bar. And it's like, every time you drove down the road. Oh, that that in great character.

00;14;36;14 - 00;14;44;06
Unknown
It's western Pennsylvania. So everybody hunted. So they're like, oh dear. Yeah. You know I want yeah I would like some more deer.

00;14;44;06 - 00;14;56;19
Unknown
Oh very you know cool story. Yeah I like that. That's good. That does sound like the beginnings of a art horror movie. Me like, you know, you make this image and then as a horror writer, that's what I'm thinking.

00;14;56;19 - 00;15;00;09
Unknown
I'm like, oh, yeah, no, that's the intro. Oh, total. Yeah.

00;15;00;09 - 00;15;01;07
Unknown
I think so.

00;15;01;07 - 00;15;18;20
Unknown
We are here today to talk about the OG 1984 Toxic Avenger movie. And Fred, we like to start off, especially when we have guests. We're going to ask what is your background with this movie. When did you first see it? What if you remember? What did you think about it when you first saw it?

00;15;18;22 - 00;15;27;08
Unknown
And did you rewatch it in preparation for this podcast? Or you know, what is your backstory with and relationship with this movie?

00;15;27;08 - 00;15;46;16
Unknown
Well, back in November, I got, the call to do comment, do The Toxic Avenger, and we immediately started developing our ideas. And, the first time I saw the movie, I must have been in college and.

00;15;46;18 - 00;16;08;10
Unknown
Okay, it came out when I was in high school, so, that was like 84, I think. Or 80. Yeah, somewhere around there. And, I know I didn't see it in the theater. I saw it on a video at college, you know, probably five years later. Database. Yeah. So it was, there's a reason you didn't see it in the theater.

00;16;08;10 - 00;16;42;18
Unknown
We'll get to that when we cover the history of the movie, right? Yeah. It was it was not really available for most was in the theater. So. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was definitely already cult status by the time I saw it. And, you know, like I was in I was a freshman in college, and I think when I saw it and somebody stuck it in the videotape, we had one tape, player in for the floor in our dorm, and, the one guy that whose who owned it was like, I have.

00;16;42;21 - 00;17;18;05
Unknown
I have two tapes. One I'm not showing you, and the other is Caddyshack. And we we watched Caddyshack, probably like 40 or 50 times that semester. And, so that was that's actually my favorite of all movies. I think that's. Yeah. Due to attrition. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, it was definitely a, that was, I was in, really good, like young young person's mindset to absorb that movie and go, this is yeah, I love comedy.

00;17;18;05 - 00;17;42;02
Unknown
I love all that. And then, then somebody slipped in The Toxic Avenger and everybody was like, what the hell is this? And, I was just like, oh, this is horrible. You know? That was my I'm like, oh, there goes the visual effects. But I, I, I was incredibly entertained by it, you know, because I'm like, this is also it is horrible.

00;17;42;02 - 00;18;03;20
Unknown
Is it. It's it's consistently like, it's consistently cringing the whole way, you know, it's like the yeah, it, it also. Yeah they can something in the young mind like just like John Waters movies. It's just a or something. Yeah. And you, you know, even if you're creeped out and grossed out, you're like, oh, that's a possibility.

00;18;03;26 - 00;18;28;18
Unknown
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was inspired. I just really found it very, like, like I kept thinking I'd think about it like three weeks later. Yeah. It would just like something would happen and I'd trigger a memory and I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember that. Funny. I think that weird thing that happened there, I see the car that was in the movie and like, oh, that car is the one that ran over that kid's head.

00;18;28;18 - 00;18;45;19
Unknown
You had like, yeah, that's that's a good, it's a good car for running over kids heads, I guess, if you're into that sort of thing, you know? But, that's probably what I was thinking. That's what I've been poor quoted that night right there. Yeah, yeah, that's that's other thing we edit out later. That's the thing. Oh, great.

00;18;45;19 - 00;19;09;18
Unknown
A social media. Sure. Yeah. That's how we become famous. That's how it works. That's like, are my one of my favorite, Mike Norman jokes the comedian. He's like, yeah. Everybody's going around the Thanksgiving, table saying what they're thankful for. And, and he says, yeah, I'm, I'm thankful I'm not a pedophile.

00;19;09;18 - 00;19;32;25
Unknown
And everybody gets really mad. There's like, he's like, no, I said, I'm not, you know, and, you know, so I I'd say things like that I think. Yeah, a lot of times. Oh yeah, that's you. All right. So, Dallas, you what's your history with this movie? Yeah, I, I first encountered this at the same time I encountered, faces of Death.

00;19;32;25 - 00;19;57;09
Unknown
Do you guys remember that? Yeah. Oh, yes. So you two. Yeah. Yeah, I the same time I encounter exams. So my mind, you know, I've been raised by a dad who loved, the Wizard of Oz. We watched it every. What is it? Easter. You know, he loved old Westerns. He loved just sort of kind of middle of the road Americana and American fare.

00;19;57;11 - 00;20;20;06
Unknown
And so I was raised on that kind of romantic notion of the world where fantasy was, you know, it was all like bubbly. And the worst thing you get is a witch with green paint on your skin. So who you could defeat, who you could defeat, water. What, And my brother, I sorry, my sisters. I guess technically my first cousin.

00;20;20;06 - 00;20;42;14
Unknown
We have first cousins who were slightly older than her, but I didn't have much interaction with them. But we were hanging with them one night, and they pulled out two tapes. Very similar story year one was Faces of Death and the other was this film. Wow. That's a that's a double feature. Got it. Yeah, a double feature.

00;20;42;18 - 00;21;04;11
Unknown
But here's what's amazing about that. I had never been so entertained. I don't know if it's like, the early signs of psychopathy. A sociopath, but I was just like, oh, this is delicious. You know, it was one of those things that's like, oh, this. Okay, I know what I'm doing the rest of my life, you know? So, yeah.

00;21;04;13 - 00;21;26;14
Unknown
And then I honestly, I'd forgotten about, that I forgot I forgot about the movie for 25 years. And then I ended up watching, what's the one based in the high school? Nukem high Nukem? I watched Nukem on a lower class of. Or are you talking about it? Because I think class classes. That's the one class of, 1999 or something like that.

00;21;26;14 - 00;21;46;26
Unknown
19. You're one of those. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, and I was like, oh, this is really stimulating. Again, I was like, why, what is this? And then I had that flash of a memory and I was like, you know, go check that, checked it out again. And yeah, it's kind of a test. It is. It's I love this kind of genre of film.

00;21;46;26 - 00;22;09;17
Unknown
It's why I love John Waters. I love the guys who are taking the risks just to see how far they can push the envelope, because this is that's kind of what the medium is made for. And so when you see people who are doing that without exorbitant budgets, it's fascinating. And yes, you know, even all the missteps and the gaffes, it's all part of the experience.

00;22;09;17 - 00;22;34;12
Unknown
So, yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting I went through it similarly, I think it was high school, the college years, probably more college years. But I went through a whole video rental phase with Troma, right where it was just like Romeo and Juliet. Troma wore Cost of Nukem, High Sergeant, Kabuki Man, NYPD. You know, it's just like lots of Troma videos.

00;22;34;12 - 00;22;51;18
Unknown
And I have active memories of renting all these films. Yeah, and I think I've been walking around with the belief I'd seen The Toxic Avenger all this time. I it's. I got to tell you guys, I could see that. I watched it in preparation for this podcast. I've never seen it. I don't think I've ever seen it until now.

00;22;51;21 - 00;23;20;25
Unknown
I can believe that. I think I'm pretty sure this was my first time. And it's a little, I, you know, I feel like I don't know myself. I mean, not having seen The Toxic Avenger, like, the, the main trauma, who we did define them all that started the fringe. You see. Right. Yeah. Right. It's they're, you know, it's it's they're, spider man or Iron Man or Tony Stark or whatever it is, like the character where it's like all the others revolve around him, not vice versa.

00;23;20;27 - 00;23;45;17
Unknown
And I watched it, what, two days ago? And I was like, so I know Troma, though I know the style of Troma, I know Lloyd Kaufman. I know these types of movies very, very well. But watching the original toxic Avenger number one, I can see why it was a hit. I can see why this is one of their most successful franchises, because I've seen some Troma and this is a well-made Troma movie.

00;23;45;17 - 00;24;16;29
Unknown
I mean, but, by their standards, this actually is kind of well put together. I'm trying. It's them going right, but maybe this is the only opportunity we have. Yeah, yeah yeah. Know kind of sings. And as Fred was pointing out, like the way it leans in so heavily to what it's doing. Yeah. To these extreme absurdities and, you know, we'll, we'll talk a little bit more in, in detail about this movie, but, yeah, this was my first time and I enjoyed it thoroughly.

00;24;17;02 - 00;24;42;14
Unknown
It is dated in certain ways, but also kind of not in other ways as a low budget. You know, if you watch movies like The Hobo With a shotgun or, I'm trying to think like some of these, like, really grind, like, you know, they're meant to be Grindhouse. See, they're meant to be, like, really not high budget and, like, really, schlocky, shaky.

00;24;42;17 - 00;25;02;23
Unknown
Kind of genre fare. It's like, this still stands up with those, like, it doesn't feel like completely of its time outside of some of the special effects. And, you know, the toxic waste is essentially, from what I can tell, hot dog relish, like, like completely loaded in barrels. And I'm like, that's really cool. But,

00;25;02;23 - 00;25;24;07
Unknown
they look so sort of silly. It's the silly factor that you were. It reminds you okay, this is a pure send up. It's not you know, this the villains just being gym rats who are like homicidal in their in their mainstream. Like we are jocks and we are crazy and we're so all we want to do is harm people.

00;25;24;07 - 00;25;38;14
Unknown
And it's like, okay, that was actually going on. That was actually a big and very popular theme. And early, early, we're going to get that. We're going to get them. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah I love it. Oh, I'm going to say I think the 80s was the apotheosis of it because it started all the way back with Atlas Man.

00;25;38;19 - 00;25;55;03
Unknown
Yeah. And things like that. Right. In comics, when you had like the Skinny Wimp would always be bullied by the big, strong, wet jock guy, and then you had to become an Atlas man. Then you could just do it back to them, and that's how you got out of it. And there was no like there was no humanity in any of this.

00;25;55;03 - 00;26;23;04
Unknown
It was always like, if you are beautiful, you are an asshole. And but then you could become beautiful and an asshole. Exactly. And then you got to upgrade to that. And I do think the 80s went from like the 60, 5060s and that whole surf culture. And then through the 70s and into the 80s was like the pinnacle, the apex of that theme, where, yeah, jocks were always the meanest, cruelest, like nastiest people.

00;26;23;04 - 00;26;49;28
Unknown
And it was always the underdog was the outsider, the outlier, the nerd, the bookworm, the whatever. And then we hit the 90s, and then we get like Edward Furlong and T2 and Hackers and The Matrix with, with, you know, the computer nerd there, and it switched off like the 90s gave us grunge heroes and like the outsider became the hero without having to be bullied without like suddenly the jock was nowhere to be seen.

00;26;49;28 - 00;27;12;15
Unknown
Right? But, you know, muscle Beach and Pumping Iron and Schwarzenegger and Stallone and Rocky, that was the 80s heyday, where it's like you were a physical specimen to be a hero, right? And then it all got turned on its head and we finally, like, started doing different things in the 90s. But the 80s was the apex of that, I think in terms of all spandex, all tiny shorts.

00;27;12;18 - 00;27;32;02
Unknown
Yes. Yeah. And, you know, we'll talk more about the chip here in just a moment. By the way, the the greatest ass in the history of the Troma verse is Toxie in this first film. It's funny. Just. Anyways, they do a lot of ass shots of them, don't they? It's it's good stuff. I was like, okay, all right.

00;27;32;05 - 00;28;01;13
Unknown
Okay. I surprised that his, Yeah, it's a good leg development there. Just. Yeah. Toxic waste like, real good for you. You know, it's. Yeah, yeah. They knew what they were doing. Oh, yeah. They were clearly squatted in, the five minute interval, you know. That's right. So. All right, guys, well, before we start talking about the movie more in depth, this is the part where we're going to talk about quote unquote, what are we drinking today whether we're actually sipping it right this very moment or not.

00;28;01;17 - 00;28;23;15
Unknown
What did we decide to drink with this movie? So, Fred, kick us off. What is your beverage of choice with the OG Toxic Avenger? Well, I was, I kind of used the, breaking the fourth wall of a of a of the wall, I don't know, is there a fourth wall to break in podcasting? Because, I'm like, thinking, like we're going to say, yes, we're the dead.

00;28;23;15 - 00;28;43;18
Unknown
Yeah. Podcast. Now let's. I was like, I went to this. I went to the liquor store yesterday, and I go, I'm going to be on this podcast. They're going to be talking about some good liquors and, and, I like the wines that you guys were suggesting before in the gin drinks. And, and I go, okay, I can, I can I'm going to pick a new thing I haven't tried yet.

00;28;43;18 - 00;29;09;13
Unknown
So, but I felt like the movie kind of thinking of the jocks, the ones that I grew up around always seem to be like, yeah, tequila. You know, that's. Yes. So that's what I got. I got the, first amigos, Reposado. Yeah. And, I picked that. I already started it. I'm a little bit down already.

00;29;09;15 - 00;29;36;13
Unknown
Good. Bad. But, yeah, that's the one I felt like, Like, I like sipping it. It's kind of a nice, I might I also got my girlfriend, a bottle of scotch yesterday as well, so, I, I go give me a shot of that scotch and, and then I try the tequila right after, and it had almost as smooth as the Scotch, and,

00;29;36;16 - 00;30;00;14
Unknown
Yeah, except a little more of that, that aggressive alcohol taste to it, but, still, it's a nice, smooth reposado. And, yeah, I just I'm like, yeah, I can drink, I can drink tequila and not fall asleep. Whereas, like, if I drink beer or wine, I'm like, I'm sleepy by the end of the same time.

00;30;00;17 - 00;30;20;25
Unknown
Know? Yeah, yeah. But some reason doesn't make me fall asleep. Yeah. Casamigos. That is Clooney's brand, I think. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think that's. Oh, is that the Clooney brand? Okay. Yeah. You never Google that before, but yeah. Yeah. Clooney and Gerber I think. Yeah. And it's a it's a great product. It really is. Oh yeah. It's it's a little singe on the back end.

00;30;20;25 - 00;30;38;11
Unknown
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It was a really nice it's a good sipping. Yeah. Like I don't even have to mix it with stuff. So usually for tequila I have to I have to alternate water. But I don't. Oh yeah. Oh definitely do that. Yeah. I, what's crazy is I don't have to do with the Casamigos. Yeah.

00;30;38;13 - 00;30;53;06
Unknown
Oh, okay. So smooth. Yeah. So that is, that is smoothness. That is virtually the definition. Almost like, you know, you don't need a chaser, you don't need a mixer, you don't need anything. It's like on its own and not even needing. Yeah. The chaser water, I'm like, but it does the I need a chaser because any kind.

00;30;53;12 - 00;31;13;22
Unknown
Yeah. What's your real quick, Real quick. What's your routine around writing? Around drawing. Do you have your sort of, you know, if you're working on the project when you were working on this latest project, what's your sort of routine? Are you a coffee, tea guy? Wine to a lot of espresso. I, I have a great.

00;31;13;22 - 00;31;39;15
Unknown
I've, I bought a, Electra, like single pump. Oh, machine from Italy, last year. And, it's. Yeah, it's just, you know, I make one shot at a time and it takes five minutes every time to make it. You know, it's not a press a button and you have it. It's, it's something that's got a has a ritual.

00;31;39;17 - 00;32;06;23
Unknown
And, I enjoy, just, you know, I enjoy, like, doing, still lifes of of of coffee cups, when I'm, when I'm just messing around and, and then consuming some of those. I love that. Yeah. Consuming my espresso. My other. Yeah. And I do espresso. Go to the gym, come back. And that's when I work because, I'm like, I'm getting a little tired and,

00;32;06;27 - 00;32;26;19
Unknown
Yeah, but I'm awake, you know? And then I can just relax and draw and and, yeah. But I tend to be more of a night person, so I end up, I end up going to bed at 3 or 4 in the morning, and, And welcome to the party. Well, yeah. Yeah. You found your, you know.

00;32;26;21 - 00;32;43;11
Unknown
Yes. You did. I forget the espresso around two? Yeah, yeah. See, I've, I've had to. I'm a big, like, pour over coffee guy. So that's like my big, ritual because it also it takes like, ten minutes to make the goddamn coffee, so it's like, it's. But it's the thing that I like. It's peaceful first thing in the morning.

00;32;43;15 - 00;33;05;10
Unknown
I do tend to stop. Like, I think 1 p.m. is my cutoff for caffeine now because I am such a night owl. By nature, and I already to be on a proper day job schedule. I'm like, I I'm melatonin. The generic Z quill. Like I need assistance to be beyond that. Like I it's not happening by my circadian rhythm.

00;33;05;13 - 00;33;20;26
Unknown
And I've I've worked bakeries where I've had to be there at like three in the morning to open at six inches the morning. I've worked that for a year and a half. Nothing changed like I never got. I never, quote unquote got used to it and shifted to becoming a morning person. So I'm like, this is just this is who I am.

00;33;20;27 - 00;33;43;17
Unknown
Like, I will forever be. My natural rhythm is, yeah, three four in the morning if I'm not knocking myself out somehow. And then, yeah, work out. And then my best work is always at night after work and it's like you're just because you have that, you have that great exhaustion, yet your wide of frickin wake. You've got those endorphins, the adrenaline just got out of you, and you're like, you're focused.

00;33;43;17 - 00;33;46;15
Unknown
And it's a beautiful hours. Those are beautiful hours.

00;33;47;03 - 00;34;17;25
Unknown
Anyway, so, Dallas, what are you drinking? I'm gonna go. So, I am. So, curiously, this whole, is just the term inverse in general. It is so organic. I mean, I mean, I know there's planning. Of course, there's lots of planning. It's a film and has to be planned well, but it just seems so organic. Because as the stories, they're really small, you know, the stories are really small in scale.

00;34;17;27 - 00;34;36;28
Unknown
It's usually some small town or school or, you know, a gym and a couple of. It's actually always the same town. It's the same town, right? Right. So it's a very small world. It's very sort of organic. He's just sort of, you know, populating this world with interesting characters. But, I decided to go with something.

00;34;36;28 - 00;35;02;16
Unknown
When I first saw this film, it was very confusing, even though it was very, satisfying. And I associate that with, cloudiness, in terms of a texture of wine. So I actually went with a cloudy organic vegan wine because it just like this film challenges the norms and breaks with all the convention. It's intriguing.

00;35;02;16 - 00;35;30;29
Unknown
I, I almost went in that direction, too, so I kind of I hear it, it's intriguing in the appearance it forces you to and then it forces you, but it inspires you to, want to dig deeper into the mystery, and kind of indulge in the world a bit, just like, you know, you were saying Fred earlier, you know, as a child, it was really sort of unsettling, but you can't really look away because it's also really satisfying.

00;35;31;01 - 00;35;54;08
Unknown
Yeah. You know, and, Yeah, I went with the trouble. Cloudy wine. This is made with organic grapes, and it's from Gerard Butler. Trent. It is a vegan. They just call it cloudy wine, I love that, yeah, they just call it for the wine. It is, 60 shard, 20 Grenache and 20 the on the younger, and, it's fun.

00;35;54;08 - 00;36;10;10
Unknown
It's a fun little wine. It is not a, a porch sipper. It's not for purist. It's not for people who look to a glass of wine to get a singular experience. And, I think that mirrors the experience of watching, this film.

00;36;10;10 - 00;36;21;21
Unknown
and you know, they are polarizing just like this film. So is it natural wine? Is it a natural wine? Do you know it's officially organic grapes? And naturally, yes, it is a natural wine.

00;36;21;28 - 00;36;45;02
Unknown
Bertrand is an athlete of, I think, I actually don't remember what sporty plane. I think it was. Soccer. Okay. A professional sport of something. Yeah, yeah. But. Yeah. So, try. I'd love to hear what you think. Like I said, it's a there's a high probability you may not enjoy it, depending on, you know, your, familiarity with wine, but, it's an experience just like this film.

00;36;45;07 - 00;37;05;18
Unknown
So. Yeah, I, I had the opposite reasoning of, that in a way, I was like, okay, it let's what's the wine that has the most, toxic stuff in it, you know, all that nice, you know, like, I'm like, this has to. You need a wine. I like, like, grown up in the 70s. My parents had, thing, that I remember the reunion.

00;37;05;19 - 00;37;24;25
Unknown
Ice cream. You needed three. You need it? Yeah. It's like. Oh, yeah, I had a cap. You know? It wasn't. It wasn't even real. You know, my parents love that was. That was a wine. That was a wine for swingers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, reunion was officially a Lambrusco, just FYI, for anyone who wants to know, like, that was.

00;37;24;25 - 00;37;41;17
Unknown
And it was the most imported wine. The heaviest imported wine for a decade in America. It was the biggest of anything like it had. That at home is amazing. Yeah. Everywhere. Yes. It was. It had the most. Was cornered. Those commercials were everywhere.

00;37;41;17 - 00;38;05;25
Unknown
I went the opposite route. I was I wanted something to counteract all the elements of the movie because they are so extreme. It leans so heavily in. I'm like, I don't need more of this. Because I did definitely think I was trying to come up with something where it would almost just be like a fruit bomb of a red, you know, where it's just, like, super pleasant, but almost to the point, but almost cloyingly.

00;38;05;25 - 00;38;27;06
Unknown
So, like, you can have one glass and then it's so overpowering and it's so much just childish fun and fruit. And that's where you gummy flavor describing where you need. Oh, there you go. So it could have been reunited. I didn't think of reuniting. It's I, I'd never actually technically tried for unity. I know they know about it, right.

00;38;27;06 - 00;38;47;27
Unknown
But I never actually had it. Show note here, we're going to come back to this. We're going to do some old school middle America wines. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Dana, reuniting in The Wizard of Oz, they probably go, well, you will have to, try that out. But I went with something. I was like, you know what?

00;38;47;27 - 00;39;14;05
Unknown
I think I'm going to go with something that is so stupidly crisp and so stupidly, like, tart and zingy and acidic that it's just like the absolute opposite of this movie, where it's like it's sharp, it's clean, it's highly like it. You feel like you're getting clean by drinking this wine where the movie is all filth and blood and gore and disgusting this.

00;39;14;05 - 00;39;34;21
Unknown
And you know, it's and you know, people being horrible and sociopathic and homicidal and it's like all the horrible parts of humanity and it's like, it's fun. But I'm like, you know what? I want to counterbalance that. So I got a white, what's called a pig pool. Oh, yeah. So I got this hot Brian pig pool de pany.

00;39;34;26 - 00;39;58;09
Unknown
I got this from a bevmo. So this is a pig pool. That is very, it's out there that you can probably find it for most, major wine stores. And pig pool is a white grape. It's French. In French, pig pool literally means lip stinger. And because it is so highly acidic, it just it's sharp. It is like super tart.

00;39;58;09 - 00;40;18;10
Unknown
It's one of the most acidic grapes out there. Pig pool de pany is a subregion of the Languedoc in France, where it pretty much only grows pig pool. That's what it's known for. And France only grows, I think, in all of its vineyards. Pig pool only, amounts to 0.15% of its grapes, so they don't grow a lot of it.

00;40;18;10 - 00;40;40;20
Unknown
And so I'm assuming this region is where most of it is coming from, because it is all nothing but peak pool in the southern Languedoc. And, this particular pig pool is actually it was kind of disappointingly balanced. I so I do have to say that where I was like, this one is not too terribly sharp, this hot, this hot bridal pig pulled a pony.

00;40;40;20 - 00;41;00;11
Unknown
It's more, you get some, you get some citrus, you get some green apple tartness. But it's actually very middle of the road and kind of balanced. And I was like, oh, man, I really I wanted that sting, I wanted that attack. So I will say, for those who want the attack as well out there, I'm going to give a shout out to Bonny Doon does do a pig pool here.

00;41;00;18 - 00;41;19;27
Unknown
In I think it's from Sonoma that they get their pig pool from. And it's about the same price as this bottle too. You get it for about $1,517 a bottle, so it's no one's going to break their bank on either of these bottles. And that pig pool is a lip stinger. That one is just, like, sharp as a motherfuck, sharp as a tack.

00;41;20;04 - 00;41;42;14
Unknown
As they say. I mean, it's it's every taste. You're like, woo, you know, like, okay, going down. Well, and that I feel like it had that cleansing feel where I'm like, I feel like I feel like my my whole system is getting a wash out because this is so sharp and acidic and crystal clear. And just like it's a beautiful wine for that reason.

00;41;42;14 - 00;41;58;26
Unknown
And that works for me to counterbalance everything that was going on on screen with The Toxic Avenger. All right. I can see, though, I. Would you do that? It, you do a do a sip at the end of each scene. There you go. Yeah, you could do it that way. Oh, that was really gross horse. But yeah, yeah.

00;41;58;28 - 00;42;19;15
Unknown
Every time you feel yourself cringing a little bit, take a sip. Right. And like, back up a little bit and you're like, oh, okay. There. Better, better. All right guys. So having mentioned the wines, and or the drink or the or the non wines as some of this was the drinks, the beverages, let's actually go into a little bit of the Toxic Avenger history.

00;42;19;15 - 00;42;24;25
Unknown
And then we will talk specifically about our thoughts on the movie, the movie a little more in detail. So

00;42;24;25 - 00;42;41;25
Unknown
there is an excellent book out there, by the way, that is titled all I Need to Know About Filmmaking. I learned from The Toxic Avenger The Shocking True Story of Troma Studios by Troma Studios founder Lloyd Kaufman and filmmaker James Gunn, with an introduction by Roger Corman.

00;42;42;01 - 00;43;00;20
Unknown
Now. Fun fact for those who don't know, James Gunn got his start in a Troma movie. It was his very first. He did the script for Romeo and Juliet. That's where he got started. So he is a big Lloyd Kaufman Troma Studios fan. So that's why he co-wrote this book with Lloyd Kaufman. And everyone out there starred in a Corman movie.

00;43;00;26 - 00;43;27;29
Unknown
So, yeah, well, you know, you'd be surprised. So really fun fact about, Toxic Avenger. It is Marisa. Tommy's first screen appearance ever. Yeah, she she is the girl who runs and she's covered in a towel when Toxie is is cornering the blond girl in the locker room. And is and is. And then this other dark haired girl runs in wearing a towel, screams, and then the blond gets away.

00;43;27;29 - 00;43;50;05
Unknown
She, like, runs out. That is Marissa. Tommy, who runs in in the towel. And, so that was her very first screen Academy Award winner, Marissa Tobey. That was her beginning. And there are a lot of people that got their start. David Straight hair and Marissa. Tommy, there are lots of other filmmakers as well. Yeah. I actually, I own still a Hans Rodionov, Troma movie.

00;43;50;08 - 00;44;13;01
Unknown
Hans Rodionov. As someone who's gone on to do tons of TV, lots of movies. Yeah, he did that Swamp Thing Marvel movie from the 90s. If anyone remembers that it was not very good, but, he did do that as well. But this sucker, the vampire is a Troma movie. He did. That is weirdly, really good. It is ultra low budget and it's so well done that I still own it on my DVD shelf.

00;44;13;01 - 00;44;29;12
Unknown
I've never gotten rid of it because I'm just like, this is a little gem. What the hell, man? So I've always held on to it. So lots of people got their start with Troma. Yeah. Lots of lots of big names. But this book, some of what I'm about to say is I have not read this book.

00;44;29;15 - 00;44;48;29
Unknown
I did not have time. By the time I realized it existed, I was like, oh, well, I don't have time to order it, have it come in and read it before this podcast. Oh, Mike. Well, I can't do that. But so I called a lot of this information from online. If anyone has read this book and anything I'm about to say is incorrect, send us an email, let us know within the letter N pod.

00;44;49;01 - 00;45;10;10
Unknown
Yeah gmail.com and let us know what we got wrong. We will. We will do a correction, but more importantly let us know what we got. Right. Pick us up with Matt. So that is yes flatter us. Flattery will get you everywhere. But you can write that. I've heard it's informative. The book is a hilarious read, but, let's get into what I was able to call together without the help of this book.

00;45;10;10 - 00;45;32;06
Unknown
And that is Troma Entertainment fun fact it's not actually called Troma Studios. They call it a studio. I think colloquially, even Lloyd Kaufman calls it Troma Studios because they do like, produce, distribute, whatnot, everything. But Troma Entertainment is the official name of the company. Troma entertainment was founded by Lloyd Kaufman and Michael Herz in the mid 1970s.

00;45;32;06 - 00;45;56;18
Unknown
Their first releases were a series of sex comedies, starting with Squeeze Play in 1979. They also offered production services of films like The original Rocky, the OG Rocky, and 1980 ones My Dinner with Andre, in which Lloyd Kaufman also acted as production manager for the O'Keefe yes He Can production there now I can see it now. Actually. Now.

00;45;56;18 - 00;46;18;06
Unknown
And the production design of that film? Yes. Wow. Yeah, yeah. So they did production services, and Lloyd Kaufman was the production manager on My Dinner with Andre and the OG Rocky. So in 1984, after doing all these sex comedies, which had kind of become mainstream by the 80s, and they were like, oh shit, our cheap ass sex comedies aren't going to do it, and they're not going to swing us anymore.

00;46;18;09 - 00;46;42;26
Unknown
So in 1984, they finally had to do something different than the sex comedy genre, and they basically decided to do two, and they read an article in one of the trade magazines that declared, horror is dead. And Lloyd Kaufman basically said in an interview, horror films never die. Sometimes Hollywood just has an attitude that horror is beneath them.

00;46;43;01 - 00;47;01;28
Unknown
And there are 100 million explosion movies. He added that a Troma horror movie wouldn't be the same kind of horror movie. Then, say, John Carpenter would make, he said that their movies would stretch you in every direction. You're scared, you're shocked, you're laughing your head off, you cry. I don't know about that last one. Unless you're crying like, you know, horror.

00;47;02;03 - 00;47;23;23
Unknown
But I don't know. I don't know that it's actually moving me in any in any specific way. But outside of that, yes, he's very true. These are everything in the kitchen sink horror movies. Most of Troma movies, including The Toxic Avenger, take place in Tromaville, new Jersey, which is, of course, a fictional town. A decent amount of the town's character can be gleaned from Kaufman's own expressed beliefs.

00;47;23;23 - 00;47;50;08
Unknown
He calls his socialist grandmother a quote unquote big influence. He also makes a point that all Troma movies take the side of the, quote unquote, little guy against overlords and entrenched interests. In an interview, Lloyd Kaufman has said the little people of Tromaville are perfectly able to run their lives, but they are victims. First off, a conspiracy of the labor elite that's the labor leaders who make millions of dollars while their constituents eat dog food.

00;47;50;10 - 00;48;13;25
Unknown
There is the corporate elite, and we all know who they are. Finally, there is the bureaucratic elite. The Congress of the United States, who have never worked today in their life for the most part, but who are all feeding at the public trough. There's also a revolving door of corruption, and as such, Tromaville residents are sucked dry of their economic and spiritual capital, and sometimes they need the Toxic Avenger to save them.

00;48;13;28 - 00;48;39;15
Unknown
Now, the one thing I will say about that quote while yes, I that is Lloyd Kaufman to a tee, he is a devout socialist in that regard, does not trust established interests, but one thing that I noticed about this movie was how much the residents were almost their own problem. They are so inactive they do nothing like kids are being run over in the street and it's like they're like, oh well, yes.

00;48;39;18 - 00;48;56;06
Unknown
Oh well, I think that's part of his point. There's a well, I think that's one of the reasons those characters are played that way is because, you know, in order for things to change, you have to one see the issue to, you know, figure out how to, you know, it's how you involve the solution, how you become part of the solution.

00;48;56;06 - 00;49;22;07
Unknown
So I would assume there's some subtext there going on with this socialist kind of leaning. So but you're right, the characters are so flat. But also it may just be the actors because they just think, well, yes. Yeah, 100%. Although there's even like a scene at the very end of time. And this is no spoilers for no. One at the very end of Toxic Avenger, in the big showdown, Toxie gets a girlfriend called Sarah.

00;49;22;07 - 00;49;47;06
Unknown
Blind girl. And so it makes great surrounded great eggs. Yes. Toxie is surrounded by all the townspeople. They're kind of celebrating him. Sarah walks out of a tent and she's like, you know, what's his, what's his name? Melvin. What's the actual character's name? She's like Melvin. Melvin. And he's like Sarah and trying to elbow the townspeople out of the way to get to them all.

00;49;47;06 - 00;50;06;21
Unknown
The townspeople turn around and look at her as she's, like, falling down and stumbling, and they just watch her. Beautiful. They just watch her so much. And Toxie takes, like, a solid minute to get to her and then lifts her up, and I'm like, fucking townspeople, would you be useful for once in your goddamn lives, like to do something to be fair?

00;50;06;24 - 00;50;28;25
Unknown
Oh, my name is town's person. I would just I know, but this is. But I think this goes back to the whole politics of things where it's like, guys, we do have some power. We do, but we have to exercise and we have to engage and give a shit and do anything. Sometimes politics is local. Yeah, that's right, politics is local.

00;50;28;25 - 00;50;52;23
Unknown
Yes, but anyway, getting back to, Troma and Lloyd and Lloyd, Kaufman mentioned in an interview with Krypton Radio that he first became interested in environmental issues just before making The Toxic Avenger. He said, my wife and I used to frequently camp in the great outdoors, and no matter where we went, there was garbage. No matter how remote of a location, there would be streams with beer cans.

00;50;52;25 - 00;51;18;03
Unknown
And as Kaufman explained, this was also before fast food restaurants use biodegradable materials, so there was roughness everywhere. Needless to say, this inspired the film, and the filmmaker and Kaufman credits the environmental theme with helping to keep the movie's legacy alive and eventually leading to a delightful, economically correct Saturday morning cartoon for five year olds. This is a reference to the 1990s Toxic Crusaders, not this movie.

00;51;18;05 - 00;51;35;00
Unknown
Just so everyone is aware that this movie is not for five year olds. No matter. No matter how delightful it may be, five year olds killed, but yes. Exactly. Yes. Do you want to traumatize your five year old for life? Yeah. And watch this movie. And the other five year old getting his head run over by a car?

00;51;35;03 - 00;51;59;07
Unknown
Yeah. The film was originally titled Health Club Horror and only renamed in post-production, which is why Melvin is never called The Toxic Avenger during the course of this first film, because that was not the name, of the movie until they were in post. Melvin, our main character prior to being transformed into The Toxic Avenger, spends the first part of the movie getting terrorized by members of the gym.

00;51;59;10 - 00;52;19;06
Unknown
We kind of touched on this a little bit earlier and eventually gets revenge on all of them. The health club Lloyd Kaufman said. The health club is the perfect place to establish the bullies and to show someone who is slightly different getting bullied. Again, I think that has a long legacy. So this is not necessarily a movie that started that.

00;52;19;06 - 00;52;39;01
Unknown
In fact, I think this movie came out during the decade that essentially ended it because we took it so far and did it so much. But the 80s was definitely that was that was a heavy theme of, of the 80s in America. So the idea to include health clubs traces back to Kaufman's work on Rocky, where he was the production manager for all the scenes shot in Philadelphia.

00;52;39;04 - 00;52;59;04
Unknown
He also made a cameo. By the way, Lloyd Kaufman is the bum there. Rocky picks up and drops inside the bar. So Kaufman spent a fair amount of time in a near Jim's, a big part of the fitness crazed 80s, and he said, I was hanging out around a lot around gyms, and I realized they were built, that we were building up our bodies.

00;52;59;04 - 00;53;22;09
Unknown
With all of these gyms popping up in personal training becoming a new thing, but we were defiling the earth and ruining the environment. So to him, that's a big reason why he saw that as the polar opposite, like the evil side of environment. I feel like that's a bit of a stretch. Like I get that we're trying to be healthy, but also Americans, like we were defiling the environment when we were unhealthy as fuck too.

00;53;22;09 - 00;53;48;02
Unknown
So it's like these two things were not really connected in any significant way, but, you know, Kaufman was like, he he was very pooping on that. He was he was not a big fan. Okay. So Mark Tochgl, who plays the lead role before he becomes the Toxic Avenger. So the skinny, scrawny Melvin the janitor said that after reading the script, quote, I knew it would either be a huge cult film or the worst film ever made.

00;53;48;05 - 00;54;11;28
Unknown
Turns out it was both. But. For his part, actor Patrick Kilpatrick, the guy who was the, the thug in the diner with the painted face, with the one side of his face painted with black. Right. And Patrick Kilpatrick, thought it was the worst film in Western civilization while he was doing it and had no idea it was going to become such a cult film.

00;54;12;03 - 00;54;35;27
Unknown
He recalled that he was part of Roanoke, one of PBS's biggest productions of the era. At the same time, this led to an unusual experience reading an issue of The New York Times to find a negative review of The Toxic Avenger on one side, and a positive review of Roanoke on the other side of the spread. Most report that working with Troma and working, on the Toxic Avenger movies in particular, is a fun experience.

00;54;35;27 - 00;55;00;24
Unknown
That doesn't mean there hasn't been, strife on set. There may have been more than a few, let's call them threats, shakedowns, and other nebulous forms of conflict. So the late John Altamira, the main toxic performer in The Toxic Avenger two and three, had a falling out with Troma after the third film. The second and third movies were shot at the same time, and Altamira claims the producers didn't want to pay him what he was owed for doing both.

00;55;00;26 - 00;55;29;11
Unknown
He stated in an interview with journalist Rob Rod Wilbon that after allegedly dealing with some quote unquote intimidate sting forces, he decided the filmmakers wouldn't get away with it, adding, and that's why you'll never see Lloyd Kaufman or co-director Michael Herz at any event that I'm at. Now to add to this, Patrick Kilpatrick, that actor we just mentioned before who played Leroy in the first movie, alleged, too late in the game that the movie was financed by the mob.

00;55;29;13 - 00;56;03;23
Unknown
He claims that, quote, he got involved with the leading lady a little bit, adding that she got the job because of one of the mob financiers. But he stopped speaking to her after getting confronted by said financiers. Muscle in the men's room. So, there is nothing on record that this is true. Just just to be clear to everyone, we do not know that, Troma films had any sort of, like, mob financing connections, but a lot of people who work on them seem to suggest that this either was the case or has been the case, or sporadically is the case.

00;56;03;29 - 00;56;07;16
Unknown
I don't 100% know, but this is the these are the reports,

00;56;07;16 - 00;56;27;25
Unknown
when it came to the cast, the of the Toxic Avenger Troma Edition, dozens, if not hundreds of kids for Melvin, the 98 pound weakling. But Mark Tochgl, the man who plays Melvin pre transformation. So the skinny janitor guy, as mentioned before, he had a bigger role behind the scenes.

00;56;28;00 - 00;56;49;20
Unknown
He first got involved with Troma a year before the Toxic Avenger. While student at NYU, he answered a note on their job board to help with their movie The first turn on one of their sex comedies, and asked to be a script supervisor so he could work with the director. When the actor hired to play nerdy high schooler Dwayne in that movie didn't show up, just didn't show up, Lloyd Kaufman gave the role to toggle.

00;56;49;23 - 00;57;03;05
Unknown
So after auditioning everyone for this role and not finding anyone they liked, they eventually just called turtle and said the role was his. If you wanted it. So he accepted and also worked once again as script supervisor on this movie.

00;57;03;05 - 00;57;25;03
Unknown
So, fun fact about Melvin. Also, there is an officially unofficial follow up to his character called a movie called toxic two. It's a Troma film. Isn't an official Toxic Avenger film. This isn't so much Nightmare on Elm Street five as it is New Nightmare. So toxic two two is the brainchild of Mark.

00;57;25;03 - 00;57;45;21
Unknown
He left acting behind not long after the first Toxic Avenger, and worked behind the camera for three decades. Around 2015, Chagall was invited to the Mad Monster Party convention, and he had one of his old film school buddies document. This his first ever con appearance. They started traveling the con circuit and found out people wanted to be a part of this movie.

00;57;45;21 - 00;58;05;02
Unknown
They were making this kind of mini documentary. Eventually, they decided to take it a step further and add a narrative, make it a little meta. So toxic two two is a partial mockumentary about two years old touring the con scene before getting kidnaped by masked gunmen who have an interest in the real toxic waste from the original movie that is toxic.

00;58;05;02 - 00;58;25;06
Unknown
Two to it is a Troma film, so you can find that out and another. Yeah, another bit of trivia there. One of the big sort of gaffes in the film is or continuity issues is when, Melvin drops into the bucket of slime, he's wearing a tutu. But yeah, as the stunt guys running away, there's no tutu.

00;58;25;06 - 00;58;40;04
Unknown
And so that's always one of the sort of notes that anyone has, or God questions anyone who has any of the pros and cons, because the Toxic Avenger continues to wear the two to the whole time, right? So that that's kind of an important part, because I think in my brain I could be like, well, maybe the two burned off.

00;58;40;04 - 00;58;56;03
Unknown
These chemicals are like lighting things on fire. So the frilly thing, of course, is just like centered. But then of course, he has the tutu later. So it's like, nope, never mind. The two tease back. That was just a mistake. So just grew back. It just. That's right. It just grew back. Oh. Good one. Good. There you go.

00;58;56;05 - 00;59;26;16
Unknown
That's a comic, man right there. Yeah yeah yeah. There's always a solution. That's that's the. No, that's the no prize thing. I have this right. Yeah. There you go. Nobody ever dies. Nobody ever dies. Everything's explainable. Everything can be a retcon. Don't worry, guys, don't worry. It's all good. So to wrap this up, The Toxic Avenger was released in November 1984 and had a long run as a midnight movie on a single screen at the Bleecker Street Cinema in New York City.

00;59;26;16 - 00;59;44;04
Unknown
That's right. On April 4th. Exactly. This is why you could not see it in the theater on April 4th, 1986, the film was opened on 45 screens total, but that was it, just 45, and earned $140,000 for its opening weekend, which is actually pretty good.

01;00;14;26 - 01;00;20;11
Unknown
It has since had a long and lengthy run on home video formats.

01;00;20;18 - 01;00;47;20
Unknown
The movie has spawned three official sequels an animated children's cartoon, The Toxic Crusaders, as mentioned before, a Broadway musical which was recorded and you can watch on streaming services today. They did. They did make a recorded movie out of that. And Mark Vogel's, of course, officially unofficial spinoff and most recently, a reboot directed by Macon Blair and starring Peter Dinklage as The Toxic Avenger

01;00;47;20 - 01;00;54;12
Unknown
additional cast include Jacob Tremblay, Taylor Page, Kevin Bacon, Julia Davis, and Elijah Wood.

01;00;54;14 - 01;01;21;01
Unknown
It debuted in 2023 at Fantastic Fest, but has since struggled to find distribution, having officially been deemed quote unquote unreleased by nearly all possible distributors as of one month prior to this recording. Not. Which means I have to see it there. Yeah. So it's called him. Yes, exactly. So, you know, one day guys, like, it'll get leaked, if nothing else, right?

01;01;21;03 - 01;01;39;07
Unknown
You know? No, I mean, they can independently just be like, it's online, pay us five bucks, watch it. Who cares? Like, you know, put it on Vimeo or, who knows? It'll be available one way or the other. But, you know, it was not a super duper low budget. I mean, look at that cast, right? It's like they they they did raise some money for it.

01;01;39;13 - 01;01;47;16
Unknown
So they've got to try to, to get it, distributed as best as they can. So we'll see what the future brings. But as of right now, there is no release date on that new one

01;01;47;16 - 01;02;04;13
Unknown
So we'll see what happens. But that brings us to don't forget, though, in October, the new Toxic Avenger comic. You can get that to get your fix, while you're waiting on the new movie to drop. But in in better, who knows future. Exactly. Yeah. Who needs movies? You got comics, man.

01;02;04;15 - 01;02;27;07
Unknown
So coming back to this movie, any additional thoughts in terms of, you know, now that we know the context of where this movie came from, how it was released and where it sits in sort of the whole history of everything. Do we have more we want to say about it in terms of our takes on what this movie means or how it affects us?

01;02;27;10 - 01;02;52;28
Unknown
Well, I can say the, the, the, the comic book, that I'm doing, the way we're riffing off of it. Matt Forbes, has decided to really lean into the environmental issue, aspect of it. And, so it's almost like we're trying to turn him into the, the, the, the superhero for, climate change or, you know, and all that kind of stuff.

01;02;52;28 - 01;03;19;17
Unknown
So he has he has a main line to Al Gore's office film, I guess. Yeah. He, and Matt and that apparently he lives in Ohio and wasn't that far away from the the train spill. Right. Happened and, Palestine and, he was he's like, oh, I got to put this in somehow. And that's going to be and, you know, so we we retooled our version of it.

01;03;19;17 - 01;03;45;12
Unknown
But, I've been looking more at the movie as reference for what I'm doing in the comic book, than than the later versions. So, I've been actually, I, I kind of want to dig into that from an art. Perspective, style perspective. What things were you trying to, sort of hold consistent, textures, themes, you know, whatever.

01;03;45;15 - 01;04;11;15
Unknown
And what things? What spaces did you sort of imagine you could just blow out of the water and go left field with like, I'm just curious of that translation kind of space. Yeah, we're well, we decided we liked, I like the absurdity of, a guy that's considered the superhero still wearing a tutu. You know, like, because it challenges everybody's the challenges people's idea of masculinity.

01;04;11;15 - 01;04;24;22
Unknown
Right? You know, he's like. He's like, all the other guys have capes and masks, but he still has a great ass, right? Yeah. We're gonna get we're gonna ask, you know, which of the two to only accentuates. Yeah. Yes, exactly. I gotta bring it up a little higher

01;04;24;22 - 01;04;33;02
Unknown
You know, I've been, I've been drawing little headshots of the Toxic Avenger for various comic book stores that are, ordering them.

01;04;33;02 - 01;05;01;17
Unknown
So, all they have to do is hit me up. I'm like, you know, I got another headshot, and I don't. Ooh, hot tip, hot tip stores. That's, but, yeah, it's been, the inspiration of seeing all the reference and, you know, even if you're looking at the movie, it's hard to get that as references, you know, for what you're drawing because, you know, like, I'm should I, should I look at this scene or, like, he's throughout the movie, he's changing, you know?

01;05;01;17 - 01;05;29;00
Unknown
And so it kind of gives me a lot more freedom when I'm making the movie or making the comic book to go, well, you know, that that Boyle has moved over a little bit or that that that Taymor is now over here on this shoulder, you know, because it didn't work with that composition, which actually is a great kind of a point to consider, because perhaps he is constantly and consistently evolving physically.

01;05;29;00 - 01;06;05;09
Unknown
You know, those muscles are moving. You know, the cells are dividing, you know. So yeah, like that. And then I, I also did, I did the same time I got the, Toxic Avenger job. Another company called me to do, a story about, Lemmy Kilmister from Motorhead. Yeah. And, and the concept was, like, give, they interviewed all these people that had interactions with him, throughout his career, and they would tell a story about him, and then they'd give it to comic book guys, and we would.

01;06;05;14 - 01;06;29;18
Unknown
No way. So I got that job when I was designing The Toxic Avenger. So as an homage, I gave them like two little tumors on the side of his neck, like, so. Oh, that's cool. So I'm like, so, I that's the only consistent thing. And, I redesigned the face because they always make them with one larger eye, and inside it's kind of droopy.

01;06;29;20 - 01;06;56;25
Unknown
So I went with the droop penis and by the way, no one's going to dissuade me. This. I live in a world where chunks from The Goonies, Toxie from Toxic Avenger, and Jason Voorhees are distant cousins. Oh, yeah, they I cannot argue with your mother. Yeah, like I was brought that up, so, I'm like, yeah. It was like, I remember The Goonies.

01;06;57;00 - 01;07;17;28
Unknown
Yeah. When I first saw when I first saw The Toxic Avenger, and I'm like, that's kind of the same. Is that the same guy? You know, I know, you know, at the time, but, yeah, I was like, maybe that's his early work, you know? Right. Yeah. And then Jason Voorhees as well, if you remember Jason Voorhees with the with the mask off there, it's the same sort of profile.

01;07;17;28 - 01;07;37;22
Unknown
It's it's yeah, I don't yeah, I live in a world where they are, they are related. Oh you're right, that film. You know, the one curious thing I never thought of, mostly because I know now that I realize I've never seen these movies before. But now that I've seen the movie, I realized that Toxic Avenger is always green when illustrated.

01;07;37;26 - 01;08;02;02
Unknown
Yeah, and always brown in them. All four of the movies. He's not green. And I'm like, yeah, he's multicolor, kind of brownish. And I thought they were brown. Yeah, yeah. He's right. Yeah, yeah. And but the original Toxic Avenger poster for that movie made him green. And then from there on, every illustration of him, including the cartoon made him green.

01;08;02;08 - 01;08;26;01
Unknown
And I was like, maybe it was a color design. Like, it just pops better, you know, like if you had made it all these brown, earthy hues, it's like the whole poster, the whole image just, you know. Yeah. And like, it was kind of. Yeah, we start out, he's supposed to I don't know how, well, the colors got it across, but, our first issue, we deal with that change.

01;08;26;01 - 01;08;48;05
Unknown
We, like, we treat it like it's, it's his outer skin, and it any mold called yellow, and he's kind of green underneath. And, and that's his final form. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, oh, that's how we do it anyway, you know. All right. Yeah. Look forward to it again. What was the Lemmy, project? What was the title of that?

01;08;48;12 - 01;09;10;07
Unknown
Oh, it was, Oh, it was, it was just called Motorhead. It was for Z2 comics. Oh. Yeah. Okay. Z2 okay. Yeah, they do a lot of, music. Yeah. Okay. God, I did a Weird Al thing for them. That was. Oh, to it was. It was like the I did this or they just handed us.

01;09;10;09 - 01;09;32;18
Unknown
It's, their scripts. They rely on the artists so much, and I'm not used to that. Yeah. So they they gave me, they go, here's, here's one of Weird Al's videos, do a comic book version of that, basically, or like, or his songs. Yeah. You know, it was like, here's the lyrics to the song and then do your and I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, that's right.

01;09;32;20 - 01;09;54;08
Unknown
I don't. I went crazy or right night Santa went nuh like the same the night Santa went, crazy or something. And it was a and, he's Santa is murdering everybody because he's like, oh, I've been working for milk and cookies all these years, right? You know, and, I'm getting gypped here. I'm getting I'm bringing cash.

01;09;54;10 - 01;10;21;10
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. So, it was, I did that for, for Z2 as well. And they were, they were, they're very lenient. So they're like, oh yeah, that's close enough. So that's cool. They put up with me, to check both of those out acts, and that's something fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but we'll be doing a lot more at San Diego or not seeing, the New York Comic-Con be, in October.

01;10;21;13 - 01;10;40;07
Unknown
And, yeah. So I. Yeah. Okay. October is going to be a big month for you. Yeah, yeah. And then and then, November, I'm going to disappear and, Yeah. Right. We're going to be sleeping. Yeah. Yeah. So right back to back, back to the show. Back to back to the, you know, back to the cave.

01;10;40;08 - 01;11;00;28
Unknown
Right. So recoup. Yeah. It's all us, all us introverts at heart. It's sort of like we can do it. And then it's like okay, recoup time. Recoup time. Absolutely. Yeah. The, the curling up next to my, my, coffee maker and just. Is that. Do I missed you? Yeah. Sleep. Do you have a sleeve there on your left arm?

01;11;00;29 - 01;11;25;05
Unknown
Oh, yeah. It's, Oh. Very cool. It's very, Woo! Yeah, that's my girlfriend. When she's in a good mood. And it's, it's my coffee cup, that she's holding. Very nice. Clear. All your loves, all your love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. Good man. Beautiful stuff. This is a great episode, guys. Fantastic. Yeah. Hundred percent.

01;11;25;06 - 01;11;50;03
Unknown
And once again. Yeah. We'll take we'll take it. Toxic Avenger 1984. Also, once again, Toxic Avenger, the brand new comic from Ahoy, which again, all preorder links and information will be down below in the description of this episode. So take a look at that. Or just Google the damn thing or preorder. Looks like Avenger. Hold it hot so we can get a good still.

01;11;50;03 - 01;12;17;02
Unknown
Love it there. Hold it up. There it is. Yeah. Perfect preorder. Toxic Avenger number one Ahoy comics and find Fred at Fred harper.com or Fred harper.substack.com. All those links will be down below as well for folks. And once again, what are we drinking there? Name your tequila in there, Fred. Casamigos. Oh, George Clooney, if you're looking for an artist, I know you go.

01;12;17;05 - 01;12;40;09
Unknown
Yeah. Oh, yeah, I work for tequila. You know. He likes to hear that. He likes to hear that. Dallas, you are drinking. I am having the trouble. Cloudy wine and organic grape made by jet. The chrome and, Yeah. Kind of fantastic. Beautiful, interesting. And hook up. Rideau. Pick. Pull the pony or the bunny. Dune peak pull.

01;12;40;09 - 01;13;01;09
Unknown
If you really want it to be sharp. But if something sharpen acidic, sounds like you know you'd rather die. Okay, do this balanced wine and just give that a try. To go with Toxic Avenger 1984. And once again, everybody, this has been Fred Harper guest starring on wine, and we will be back next week with another wine and entertainment pairing for your entertain ment.

01;13;01;11 - 01;13;15;00
Unknown
Shout for now and we will see you then. Later guys we're here. We will hear, you will hear, you will hear us ladies. Okay, so there you go. Chow chow.

01;13;15;03 - 01;13;28;00
Unknown
A friend of.

01;13;28;02 - 01;13;32;04
Unknown
The food.

01;13;32;06 - 01;13;41;27
Unknown
Desert.